Line Manager just "come out" as Non-binary

Personally, I'm happy to go with the flow in this case but I can see there is another side to it. Hopefully, there will be a middle ground which allows both parties to feel okay

I think that middle ground has to be third spaces........and perhaps the concept of a 'third sex'.......with its own discrete identity. All else is a form of colonisation, and certainly infringement.

Findumdum1

I think your experience is probably a typical one. As time goes and hormones and surgeries do their work things become easier and misgendering much less of an issue. That's not to say I think of myself as no different than you and I do respect the need for boundaries. For example I'm a fan of standalone accessible gender neutral toilets. I do use the ladies if there is no other choice but, if I can avoid a queue and have a bit more space I'm all for it.

I don't feel annoyed at non binary people, mainly because I've experienced people feeling annoyed at me. I don't wish that on anyone else and I know from experience that if you aren't trans it must be quite a thing to get your head around that we would medicate and surgically alter our bodies to calm our brains down. That said, they didn't arrive at the current pathway without many years of trying to align the brain with body first.

Personally, I'm happy to go with the flow in this case but I can see there is another side to it. Hopefully, there will be a middle ground which allows both parties to feel okay.

Sex as a class isn't less complicated but our world is a bit more nuanced than 'I am Tarzan you are Jane' today

The thing is sex class is very simple. It is either male or female, he or she. It is personal identity that is a lot more nuanced and mutable. 'Tarzan and Jane' are not related to sex as such but to gendered constructs - which is what 'gender identities' seem to be playing with.

Going back to the original issue, I don't think this particular case in isolation is controversial enough to demand that the OP shouldn't make an effort to respect dignity and keep the integrity of their own opinion intact

Relationships are two way affairs..........and as with your example of identities forged at different times in your life, how people think of you, and refer to you will be flexible according to the nature and history of their relationship to you, and what has been so far negotiated between you.

If people feel compelled and controlled it is not a great basis for a mutually respectful relationship. It is more akin to narcissistic control: www.helpguide.org/articles/mental-disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder.htm

Terfsandwich

Not being a signed up member of the TWAW/TMAM opinion I'm happy with the original definitions. My experience is personal, it matters not whether people believe it or not. It's happened, I navigate life as quietly as I can and find most take me as they find me and offer me a dignity that 20 years ago I wouldn't have thought possible. I can say though that my condition as medically diagnosed and treated is very different from any religion I've encountered. I'm always willing to have my opinion changed though.

When we talk about how language evolves over time, does that include when words have their definitions changed and people are castigated if they don't follow a new religion?

Yes, I've read that book. I am interested in linguistics, hence why I find the grammar-mangling of the pronoun thing both laughable and a bit dangerous. We all know the power of compelled speech and how it was used to such devastating effect by the Nazis.

Your point is very valid though. I dont think this is a trans issue. As you say, the vast majority of trans people want to be seen to be as close to their desired sex as at all possible, preferably without anyone knowing there was ever anything different. So like you, I have worked with some transwomen and know a couple who all are delighted to be referred to as she or her, and indeed all universally are (except by my 80 year old mother who keeps calling my sibling's trans friend by her male name that she knew her as for many years. She laughs it off, good naturedly).

I wonder if you feel annoyed at the non-binary, gender fluid types that are jumping on the bandwagon without, lets face it, going through anything near what you've been through in terms of cognitive dissonance and feeling uncomfortable with yourself, and diluting it all with the ze/ver nonsense. I would.

Findumdum1

My only experience of trans people are people who present or try to present in what is considered by many as a typical binary way. For clarity those who wear hair styles, clothes and looks that are typically associated with men or women. So for me personally misgendering would be to call me he or him. Now, personally what people call me when I'm not there is their business and is likely to say more about them than me so I don't really mind. I'd personally prefer it if they can't use my preferred (not compelled) pronoun that they use my name. I don't think I'm unusual in amongst trans people in having that opinion.

In my office, it is a fundamental requirement that we are all of independent thought but my experience has been that people have been accepting. I think it is a difficult one as I transitioned some years ago in a different job and naturally people knew me before so some perhaps found it difficult to let go of the past but in the new job where people had only knew me as I am now I think decency and respect for dignity found a deliberate misgendering difficult to support so I can't say it's happened to face at least.

The world is changing, for better or for worse and inevitably with that language develops. So, reality supports that people are now using numerous gender identifiers, that doesn't mean to say sex as a class isn't less complicated but our world is a bit more nuanced than 'I am Tarzan you are Jane' today. New words are entered into the OED every year. There is a book about the development of language over time by Bill Bryson which I can recommend which may have some pertinent points with regards to this situation. It's easy to read as its laced with some low level humor too.

Going back to the original issue, I don't think this particular case in isolation is controversial enough to demand that the OP shouldn't make an effort to respect dignity and keep the integrity of their own opinion intact.

I've seen it repeated a couple of times on this thread that not using these pronouns is not 'respecting the person's dignity'. This makes no sense to me. I'm female but if someone referred to me as 'he' I wouldn't see it as some affront to my dignity. I'd assume it was a mistake and ignore it.

But then I know I'm female and don't desperately need people to 'validate' the claims I'm making about myself, I suppose. 'Agree that I'm valid' is another odd bit of Newspeak that seems to mean 'agree with whatever I say about myself, no matter how absurd it sounds'. I don't give other people that kind of power over my thoughts or my words.

if I were in HR I'd tell you that the Equality Act is irrelevant

If you were in HR then lines like 'the Equality Act is irrelevant' would get you....er, retrained, if not managed out at high speed. What on earth do you think HR do all day? They know equality law inside out because their main job is to balance need with the company not being sued by employees for breach of legal protections. That's like saying if you were in the police you'd say that traffic laws were irrelevant.

Just go with it

No.

You do you.

As this trend gathers momentum and individuals choose their pronouns from the word salad menu, it could easily become difficult to keep track of which particular CVC (consonant vowel consonant) combination each prefers and get them straight every time at email typing speed.

As a teacher who had to keep track of 30 children's names (or 200 odd when I taught secondary) at talking speed, I know the potential for getting it wrong.

It feels as though some individuals may be setting colleagues up to fail. Certainly the extra time spent ensuring the right pronoun has been selected and the email proof-read for slips by the sender and that spent trawling for errors to pounce on and complain about by the recipient is time robbed from the core business of a company. HR teams will be tied up dealing with this and the potential for accusations of 'deadnaming' , recriminations and fallings out in the workplace seem limitless.

Companies will be scrambling to comy with new GRA legislation, not to mention trying to squeeze their way onto Stonewall's list of top 100 trans-friendly companies... And then there are the essential £5k a day staff training sessions which will need regular refreshers as today's approved vocabulary morphs into next month's unacceptable terminology.

I am glad to be CEO of my own micro company so all my conversations about this can happen with the aid of a mirror!

Is "it doesn't cost you anything" the new TWAW?

Because yes, it really does.

Keeping up with the gender-fluid, whose pronouns are presumably subject to constant change, might even require a third person. HR would also need some sort of API interface into this database too so they could correctly arbitrate in cases of grevious mis-gendering (mis-pronouning?) reported to them.

This is the logical conclusion of this pronoun thing in the workplace

I have a memory of an incident similar to this happened last year when discussing something said/done by someone clearly male with public profile. A poster was deleted for not using the 'correct pronouns' as per the individual's current twitter bio however the poster had used Wiki for the source of the comment.
It begs the question how much research one is supposed to do & also how much research one can do given asking about the possession of a GRC is discouraged.

NotBadConsidering

"I find it totalitarian, and most totalitarian problems start with people shrugging their shoulders going “so what? Doesn’t bother me too much."

I couldn't agree more with this. In this case we are being forced to accept something which didn't even exist a short time ago, and is based purely on the basis of how one individual feels.
The majority being forced to cowtow to the demands of a self indulged, narcissistic individual.
At what point is society going to come together as one and refuse to humour these people?

That's an FTE right there in my organisation. We'd have to employ a grad whose entire shop would me maintaining and updating out pronoun database for all 8000 employees and 10s of 1000s of customers, partners, suppliers and prospects, in a GDPR compliant manner.

The other part of their job would be to be in call 24x7 (so 2 FTEs actually, working in shifts, as it's a global organisation) responding to urgent mesages saying "quick, I'm at drinks with , what are his pronouns again?! Is he old skool he and likely to be offended if I they him or has he recently come out as gender fluid? Quick, look it up and let me know ASAP!"

Keeping up with the gender-fluid, whose pronouns are presumably subject to constant change, might even require a third person. HR would also need some sort of API interface into this database too so they could correctly arbitrate in cases of grevious mis-gendering (mis-pronouning?) reported to them.

This is the logical conclusion of this pronoun thing in the workplace.

Its not a huge effort on your part, doesn't cost you anything so just go with it

But it does require effort to refer to someone in a way which goes against observable fact and 'nature'. If it was "cost free" people wouldn't get so upset about it. It is very costly to some, clearly......and they get nothing in return. They feel as if they are being controlled by the person making the demand.

is an implicit threat

Have I missed something that OP has mentioned about threats and sacking

I think everyone understands that there is an implicit in that reminder...and most people will be wary of getting it 'wrong'. If it goes against 'nature' and natural observation then it will have to be carefully constructed each time it is used. It is a very controlling and self indulgent thing to demand of others. Like the Emperor's New Clothes.

Imagine what a bloody minefield all this is in, say, Russian, where your adjectives have to have the same gender as your nouns. So there's an extra level of "don't say what you mean, say what that person demands that you do or they'll get you in trouble" to contend with.

Its not a huge effort on your part

Not a huge effort to maintain an up to date list of how everyone in an organisation and all external contacts wished to be referred to as in their absence? Then look up every individual each time I want to refer to them? Sounds a huge effort to me. And as the pronoun then ceases to be descriptive it inhibits clear communication and creates confusion.

They would be horrified at a demand for a pronoun but, would equally be saddened by a deliberate misgendering with an apparent intention (not an accusation) of causing upset or making the user of the misgendered pronoun feel better about themselves and their particular belief.

Would calling someone zer instead of they, or Angela instead of ver, say because you had so many non-binary/gender fluid/pansexual people in your office and had got confused when typing out a quick, urgent email, actually be mis-gendering though? Isn't it only mis-gendering if you call her him or vice versa?

How else could you respond to “Call me They”, to be fair?

I messed up badly over this one. I am severely deaf, so even a normal conversation can come out garbled, especially with a lot of background noise.

I was introduced to a new person in a social setting who ended with sentence "call me they". I nodded, a bit confused and said "I am sorry you had to deal with that growing up, it must have been hard". I called them "they" as I thought it was their name for the rest of the evening. A friend finally cleared up my mistake in the taxi on the way home.

Is it really that big a deal to call the person how they want to be called?

Pronouns arent used to 'call', names are used to call.

Should people have the right to define the verbs, adverbs & adjectives other people use in sentences which referring to them?

Oh, rtfs, cat

I don't know your work colleague and perhaps they are unreasonable so it is difficult to make a judgement other than finding a way (as I mentioned yesterday) for you to respect their dignity that doesn't force you to feel oppressed.

But, speaking from experience, the trans people I know (I confess I don't know any non binary people) generally navigate their lives with as little fuss as possible. A day unnoticed in the world is a measure of success and relative personal calm. They would be horrified at a demand for a pronoun but, would equally be saddened by a deliberate misgendering with an apparent intention (not an accusation) of causing upset or making the user of the misgendered pronoun feel better about themselves and their particular belief.

Perhaps ask them if they would sit and chat to you and explain how they feel about themselves, what led them there, what difficulties they've faced and ask them to give you an opportunity to tell them directly the reasons why you feel their particular way of identifying is not valid and why you feel you can't respect their dignity. Offer some supporting experiences to this as biological essentialism is likely to fall on their deaf ears. This may offer an opportunity for you both to start to understand each other. It could be a start of something good. As I see it at the moment, there are trans forums where those on the more hardline edges of demands for trans rights operate, Mumsnet FWR where those of a GC mindset chat without too much critical challenge and Twitter where both groups lob stuff at each other from their respective trenches. You have an opportunity here to do something different and perhaps guide the conversation in a direction that is more palatable to the majority of people who occupy the middle ground. Alternatively, your colleague may be a total dick and what I'm saying is a waste of time.

I know you are not exactly going to be Regan an Gorbachev but, it could be a start for the pair of you personally to gain some understanding and perhaps a begrudging respect for each other. Some may say take the moral high ground if you like, I like to think of it as a learning curve.