Line Manager just "come out" as Non-binary

I hope when I do use the ladies I'm not causing universal discomfort, I'd be mortified if I am.

"Universal"?
You require 'universal' discomfort? Do you mean, you'll discount and ignore the distress of one or more women and girls because you need every single woman and girl to be universally distressed?
Seems like an equation where 1 male person > multiple female people. Is one woman's discomfort not enough? How about two? Is there a different weighting for girls, perhaps 3 women + 1 girl = equivalent to one male? Or does it work with a veto system; 99% of women and girls are distressed/scared/angry, but so long as one woman is found to give her consent, the objections of the 99% are vetoed?

How do you imagine women's consent works? If you can find one woman who is ok
and consents to sharing space with you, you don't need the consent of all others? Can 8 year old girls give their consent to 45 year old men? Do they have capacity to relinquish boundaries around their bodily privacy?

Of COURSE you cause distress, there will be women and girls who can tell your sex. Please don't tell yourself that the absence of a no is a yes.

I'm entitled to bodily dignity and privacy from all men, even ones I trust. I'd be mortified getting naked in front of my brothers. Yet they wouldn't hurt me. Why on earth would you imagine I'd be ok undressing with any other man? I'm entitled to space that excludes EVERYONE of the opposite sex to me. And so is my daughter.
We don't consent, ever, to men using the sex segregated spaces that are for our sex.

As far as the opposite sex is concerned, this is the relevant question. Will you respect us and our rights, or will you disregard our consent and violate our privacy anyway?

R0wantees - I'll do one more(can't resist, I have an addictive personality)

You are right in this case I agree that the sentencing was leanient given the gravity of the crime. Personally, if anything I think it would be good for the GRA reformists if judges/procurators were to send out a tough message in these cases. I would question if that particular procurator is known for leanient sentencing or did something cause them to diverge from their norm? I assume the sentence had to comply with some set of guidelines? Alternatively the offender most definitely should have been complying with the law and human decency.

Males definitely do offend at a higher rate however when I had a cursory look with sparsely available figures trans women based on around a 0.3% incidence amongst 65000000 appeared to offend at a lower rate than males but at a higher rate than females. When you take into account that 85000 or so males are locked up it still means that the percentage of non offending males is very high, more than 99.7%. Of those not most will have committed socio economic crimes but, yes male violence is still a problem, particularly against each other it seems.

That doesn't mean to say we should disregard protections such as single sex spaces, I agree with you there, although offending patterns suggest that single sex or even unisex intimate spaces don't come anywhere near the level of sex offending in the victims home, workplace or public transport network. These caveats just make me a little more reticent to support legislating for punishments that are meant to deal with the few becoming things that allow their actions to impact on the many.

It's a tough one and I have a bias so I'm probably not best placed to take the argument forward. . Plus it's easy to assume all have my standards of adherence to the law and decency. I think whatever happens will happen and whether I like it or not I'm going to have to make the best of it. I've managed up until now so I've no reason to doubt that will change.

As I said earlier DM is open if you want to discuss it further sometime. Take care.

That's bullying in my workplace. Do you feel bullied OP?

Yes.

This is the point for me. Why does one woman's wish to announce her non-relevant in the workplace identity so that she feels dignity and a lack of bullying trump another woman's?

Stats I don't think you're part of any problem here. You seem respectful, considered and realistic (apart from your lack of understanding that intersex people are still genetically male or female (apart from one incredibly rare case of genetic chimera)). I would deem that as deserving of exactly the same respect back from me in the workplace. Its more the younger trans warriors that tell us to "suck lady dick" and "die in a grease fire TERF" that we have an issue with. Plus the ones maliciously doxxing and deplatforming women, which I see no evidence of you being interested in doing.

My appearance isn't particularly masculine and I don't have the ability to rape although like you I could technically 'conspire' to comit rape so I hope when I do use the ladies I'm not causing universal discomfort, I'd be mortified if I am.

Male pattern offences against women & girls are not limited to rape & include sexual assault, voyeurism etc.
To be very clear Im not suggesting for one moment that you would commit these but think it important to be clear as to the nature of risks which males (as a class) present to girls & women.

I'm sorry that you feel an infringement and I hope the occasions I do use the ladies, I walk in put my head down and get it all over and done with as quickly as possible and even now hope to god no one notices and I don't cause discomfort. I think most trans women feel like this. Being outed in the toilet is the stuff of nightmares.

What of the 'nightmare' scenarios which girls & women fear when they recognise males using female intimate spaces?

In 2018 two girls were separately assaulted by a young transwoman whilst using supermarket toilets in Scotland.

(extract)
"A mother has blasted the sentence given to a sex offender who attacked her 10-year-old daughter in a supermarket toilet.

The woman – who cannot be named to protect the identity of her child – voiced fury that Katie Dolatowski had been freed to serve her sentence in the community.

Dolatowski, 18, sexually assaulted the girl in the toilets of Morrisons, Kirkcaldy.

She grabbed the terrified youngster by the face, shoved her into the cubicle and ordered her to remove her trousers.

But instead of being jailed at Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court, Dolatowski, who identifies as a woman but was believed by her victim’s family to be a man, was given community payback and tagging orders.

The mum felt “very, very let down” and said: “I don’t have any confidence whatsoever that he will not go out and do something equally as bad or worse.”

The girl had been sledging when the assault occurred on March 4, last year, a month after Dolatowski had filmed a 12-year-old girl on the toilet in another supermarket in Dunfermline.

When she came out of her cubicle, Dolatowski shoved her back in and told her there was a man outside who would kill her mother.

The brave schoolgirl, however, punched Dolatowski in the face, stomach and groin and ran to her father and siblings waiting just outside the toilets.

Her mother said the girl was hysterical after the attack and continued to suffer flashbacks.

She said: “This is something that will remain with her for the rest of her life." (continues)
from thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3496984-Article-in-Dundee-Courier-about-assault-of-10-year-old-girl-in-supermarket-toilets

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3329936-teen-films-girl-in-toilet

(Minus the ‘ why is that in there?)

R0wantrees

I have no argument to counter what you say and personally although not always will make an effort to use a third space which for me is as much about privacy, cleanliness and special comfort than anything else. My appearance isn't particularly masculine and I don't have the ability to rape although like you I could technically 'conspire' to comit rape so I hope when I do use the ladies I'm not causing universal discomfort, I'd be mortified if I am. I can't really make the GRA arguments as I don't believe in changing it's present form apart from some administration and cost. Why should the tax payer pay for a panel to do what your GP, surgeon and GIC can already adequately state?

I am aware though that I do risk distracting this thread from its original purpose and I've made my point with regards to that so its the turn of others. DM is open though if you or anyone else want to discuss more, I can be slow to reply as that annoying being a human stuff with things to do gets in the way. I'm not really GC but quite often I'll read a thread and have my opinions challenged if not changed.

It's bloody confusing and I won't do it.

Yes it can be. It can lead to something not plain English.

Philips’ wants you to send Philips a copy of that report so that Philips can deal with it. Philips says that Philips wants it by end of day.”

I would write:
Philips’ is asking for a copy of that report from you so it can be dealt with before the end of the day. Is that ok?

To me it sort of gives rise to an idea that I am fundamentally so potentially dangerous that I can't be allowed in a space that fits my needs. For example, we compel certain known sex offenders to not have any contact with children and they may not be allowed to live in certain places or go to certain spaces.

Maintaining single sex spaces is based on Safeguarding principles. A female space should provide safety, dignity & privacy to females. It does not suggest that all males who are by definition excluded are sex offenders or individually a direct risk of predatory behaviours.

A teenage girl is currently taking Oxfordshire County Council to court for removing this safeguard through their transgender school policies. She is supported by Safe School Alliance.

BBC 'Oxfordshire County Council's transgender policy faces court action'
6 February 2020
(extract)
The legal action was initially going to be made on behalf of an Oxfordshire parent Victoria Edwards, a teacher, and the girl, but will now only be made on the girl's behalf.

Ms Edwards said: "It is she whose dignity and privacy are being violated by this guidance. It is she who is at risk of emotional and physical harm, and it is she who is representing the interests of all children and young people, not only in Oxfordshire but throughout the entire country." (continues)
www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-51389520
thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3815846-Can-we-all-get-behind-Girl-A-and-show-support

I mean, it doesnt cost you anything to respect their request. You can "not believe" whatever you wish, but the mature, respectful thing to do is to make the effort to treat your coworked (manager!!) with decency and sensitivity. That means respecting their pronouns.

Yes. But I would also say to the person that you will always attempt to consciously use her preferred pronouns, but hope that she'll understand the occasional slip while you get used to it, and when you might occasionally be writing 'on autopilot'.

She might well be more forgiving that the person who corrected you.

Also you need to separate the fact that you don't like this woman, from what you've been asked to do.

What the f does it matter if she identifies as "non-binary" (whatever the hell that means) ? What the f does that have to do with her job? Why the f is she announcing this at work?

Now I am getting angry about this shit being shoved down our throats everywhere.

There is a lot about me and my "identity" that no one in my profession knows or will ever know. You know why? Because it has nothing to do with my work!

I work with people who regularly choose to declare their pronouns. They look like idiots, stating the obvious. "Hello I am Jane. My preferred species is human. My preferred eye colour is brown. My preferred pronouns are she/her." Total and utter bollocks.

OP, I would do as others have suggested and just use the manager's name instead of bending to her ridiculous whim.

People who used to have sympathy for truly marginalised communities are quietly reacting in the voting booths to this shit embraced by the identity-obsessed Left.

People may go along with the pronouns at work to keep their jobs and to not become social pariahs, but proof of the backlash is in Parliament.

Angela met with the committee earlier this week. They explained our position and, after listening carefully, the committee understood and were happy with our approach.

Actually, in that example, "committee" is a singular noun, and should take the singular verb: "Angela met the committee earlier this week. It explained its position, and after listening carefully, it understood and was happy with our approach"

Isn't that a clear example of the confusion caused though?

I'm reading the example to say "Angela met the committee earlier this week AND ANGELA EXPLAINED ANGELA'S position. After listening carefully THE COMMITTEE understood and was happy."

They and it and messing with grammatical construction leaves everyone bewildered as to whether Angela or the committee are explaining their various positions.

Such fuckery. Not letting a simple slip-up slide after you were only just informed of her wish, after being used to using 'her' smacks of her being a drama llama who was eagerly waiting to jump on your 'mistake'.

justhadathought

Firstly, if my iPad changes your user name to anything different please accept my apology, I am having very personal battle with the machine.

As for third spaces, whilst I am happy to use them and I am going to go out on a limb and say many others would be too I don't like the idea of being compelled to use them. To me it sort of gives rise to an idea that I am fundamentally so potentially dangerous that I can't be allowed in a space that fits my needs. For example, we compel certain known sex offenders to not have any contact with children and they may not be allowed to live in certain places or go to certain spaces. For some less understanding than you this could lead to them thinking they have the right to take preemptive vigilante action against trans people and what better place to find them. For balance it is not lost on me that GRA reform could also produce a similar situation the other way which leads me to struggle to support it other than if it were to be around cost and simplicity of the procedure for example, the GIC consultant in consultation with your surgeon and GP are adequately placed to say whether you meet the criteria for a GRC without a faceless panel. I'm far more interested in improving healthcare for those that need it.

I'm sorry that you feel an infringement and I hope the occasions I do use the ladies, I walk in put my head down and get it all over and done with as quickly as possible and even now hope to god no one notices and I don't cause discomfort. I think most trans women feel like this. Being outed in the toilet is the stuff of nightmares.

On your other point, it's interesting that other conditions aren't treated with medical validation though. Perhaps it's because it's not inherently life threatening to treat us in the way they do and there is no reliable evidence to support a dearth of negative outcomes post transition. That's not to say there aren't some and de transitioners are an important source of evidence that the clinicians can use along with lots of other variables to improve trans healthcare. The trouble is at the moment the health service has much bigger fish to fry and rightly so. It's definitely possible to be on the autistic spectrum and trans and relieving either one can reduce the effects of the other although I'd very much guard against disregarding one in favour of the other. I've got to be honest, I often wonder why. I think my life would have been easier had there been a simple answer. Perhaps one day but I don't think in my lifetime.

Angela met with the committee earlier this week. They explained our position and, after listening carefully, the committee understood and were happy with our approach.

Actually, in that example, "committee" is a singular noun, and should take the singular verb:
"Angela met the committee earlier this week. It explained its position, and after listening carefully, it understood and was happy with our approach"

HTH

Why do people have to tell everyone at work something so personal?
I'm genetically-biologically female and content with that, I wouldn't go to work and announce it, it would be daft.

Intersex is a different matter to trans, if someone suspects they are intersex there can find out. There are not many intersex people in the world but they do exist, there's quite a lot about and by them on the internet including a well known sportsperson (so well known I can't think of their name), and an artist.

We're all different, viva les differences but in every day working life we don't have to share everything, what's the point?

stats I used to think sex was really simple and I do believe that there are mainly two with a minority of intersex conditions in between.
Intersex conditions are disorders of sexual development that are specific to sex. Not in between.

As an aside I find the statements such as above, "they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns" frustrating in their inaccuracy. The person is not preferring to 'use' feminine pronouns, they (& by implication the NASUWT) would be 'preferring' others such as colleagues, parents & governors to use female pronouns when referring to the individual more commonly understood to be 'cross-dressing'.

Relationships are two way affairs and thankfully they are based on far more than our biological sex and respective gender identity. Living a life where they are not aligned can be a bit of a balancing act at times

The thing is even people who live in conventional heterosexual relationships will suffer difficulties and personal dissonance with themselves and each other, when it comes to expectations around gender roles......even if on the surface there is initial agreement.

The nitty gritty of everyday life brings out all sorts of unconscious scripts and expectations of what men and women 'should' do, or behave like. Gendered roles very often impose upon people - even against their own character, personality or nature.

NASUWT Trans Equality in Schools and Colleges
Advice and Guidance for Teachers and Leaders was published in 2017

(extract)
"Supporting Dual-role People
Some people manage their gender dysphoria by living as a man or a woman in different aspects of their lives. For example, they may work in a male role but socialise in a female role.
Although the protected characteristic under the Equality Act is gender reassignment, it is best to assume that dual-role people are covered by perception that they might transition.
Like everyone else they deserve to be treated with dignity
and respect.
In practical terms, there should be no issues unless the different aspects of their lives overlap in some way. For example, a male teacher might want to attend a staff party as a woman. In that case they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns, and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting.
As referenced on page 4, it is always far better to ask the person concerned before applying any arbitrary label to them. "
www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/085066bb-c224-40de-b79e2a1358801ee9.pdf

recent thread about Dr Hayton's (advisor to the policy toolkit above) recent article acknowledging the role of autogynaephilia as a driver for some males who identify as transsexual/transgender :
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3812773-Impressive-new-article-by-Debbie-Hayton

Justhadathought

You're right, I'd never support compelled speech. Personally, I may have mentioned I'm non binary and left people to their own devices. Most of us are capable of dechipering a genuine error from an act of nastiness.

I used to think sex was really simple and I do believe that there are mainly two with a minority of intersex conditions in between. However, if my blood were taken and my hormone levels looked at they would, although I am not reflect those typically associated with the female sex. Surgery means that my ability to produce a male level of testosterone should be gone. My genitalia and to an extent my secondary sex characteristics would do the same. I'm presuming I'm not intersex but I don't know for sure so I expect my chromosomes would say I'm male. This leads me to think it's in a minority of cases not as clear cut but, I do agree my sex will be important to my health in later life. That doesn't mean to say I wouldn't be foolish to miss out on the breast screening programme.

Relationships are two way affairs and thankfully they are based on far more than our biological sex and respective gender identity. Living a life where they are not aligned can be a bit of a balancing act at times, medical advances have eased that path somewhat but, to not balance them in the face of natures reality would in my opinion be foolish.

I don't wish that on anyone else and I know from experience that if you aren't trans it must be quite a thing to get your head around that we would medicate and surgically alter our bodies to calm our brains down

There are other examples, apart from 'being trans': situations in which people are so unhappy with themselves and their self image that they seek to radically alter their body - either through surgery - or other means.......to align with how they feel about themselves; or to reflect feelings of unhappiness and desire for change.

The increasing number of people addicted tocosmetic surgery for example........And I recall some of the young women at the de-transitioners event in Manchester, recounting their prior experiences of anorexia - and how similar the attitude and feelings towards their body was with both 'conditions' ( being trans and being anorexic).