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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My complaint to Sussex Police re their handling of protest at WPUK Brighton Meeting

668 replies

WomanBornNotWorn · 03/02/2020 11:01

I was at the WPUK meeting in Brighton in September.

It was targeted by a group of protestors rather bigger than Saturday's London bunch - well, that one was just a little posy ...

They kicked and punched the windows for several hours, while Julie Bindel's video shows police officers staring into space:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7497869/Anger-crowd-transgender-rights-protesters-intimidate-meeting-womens-rights-group.html

I submitted a complaint that the officers allowed it to go on for a long time (watch the WPUK videos on You Tube and you'll hear it).

I've now received the detailed response from the police:

"Following your complaint, made regarding the actions of Sussex Police in dealing with a protest at a Woman’s Place UK meeting in Brighton on 23 September 2019, I have now completed my enquiries.

In your complaint you explained that you were unhappy that the officers who attended the incident at the Woman’s Place meeting took no action to prevent the disruption from protesters and stood by while protesters were shouting and banging on the windows of where the meeting was taking place.

Chief Inspector Sproston was the Public Order Silver Commander during the event, he held full responsibility for the actions of the staff who reported to him and he provided a report following the event.

The Bronze Commander was Inspector Lovell who was on the ground with the Public Order teams, he provided me with an account of the event.

Chief Inspector Sproston was fully aware of the problem caused by protestors at a previous WPUK meeting in the city and the requirements for public order policing. He and Inspector Lovell held a briefing prior to the event and formulated a plan to manage the protest against WPUK using the Protest Liaison Team (PLT).

The agreed venue, which WPUK had arranged for the meeting, was at the Odeon cinema. This afforded complete security with no access to the protestors once inside the venue. However on the evening of the event, the Odeon management declined to allow WPUK to hold their meeting there and the venue was changed. WPUK organisers had already identified a secondary location which Sussex Police were unaware of until they were informed of the venue changed half an hour before the meeting was due to start.

Inspector Lovell deployed his staff to the new venue at the BMECP Centre in Fleet Street using the same plan as was intended at the Odeon. Protestors were already at the venue and a public order team were sent to the front of the building. There were also four security staff employed by WPUK at the front, controlling entry to the building. The initial approach had been to use the PLT to try and engage with the protestors and they deployed as soon as they arrived at the new venue.

As the meeting progressed, part of the protest group went to the rear of the premises where the windows to the meeting room were at ground level. The protestors began banging on the windows and the PLT asked them to stop. When the banging escalated Inspector Lovell sent two Public Order Teams to form a cordon in front of the windows.

The protestors continued shouting and chanting at the front and the rear of the premises. Residents from the flats above threw water down onto the protestors, which also covered some of the Police Officers, but it could not be ascertained exactly which flat it had come from.

Chief Inspector Sproston had considered a number of things when making his assessment. The venue had been moved, with no notice, to a location that police had not been able to carry out a reconnaissance at. Their public order assessment had been for the Odeon cinema which had one manageable entrance and resources available to deal with that. Chief Inspector Sproston is confident that had there been a consultation on the new site, it would not have been recommended by police.

WPUK have the right to hold a meeting and not be subject to serious disorder, damage or disruption to the community. The protestors have the right to protest under articles 9, 10 and 11 of the Human Rights Act. Freedom of Expression under article 10 is applicable to the expression of views that may shock, disturb or offend the deeply held beliefs of others. This does however, have to be balanced against the rights of WPUK.

Chief Inspector Sproston considered imposing section 14 of the Public Order Act 1986 as the banging on the windows could have been interpreted as being intended to intimidate WPUK members with a view to compelling them not to hold their meeting, which they had a right to do.

Section 14 would have allowed the senior officer present to stipulate the location, duration and numbers of people allowed to protest. There was no suitable place to direct the protestors to as any place which would not have affected the venue of the meeting, would have meant the protestors would have been completely out of sight of the venue. This would have effectively stopped the protest and not just restricted its effect which is not in the spirit of articles 9, 10 and 11 of the Humans Rights Act. In turn this would have not stood up to scrutiny or challenge.

Although the protestors were loud, the meeting did go ahead and there were no reports of serious disorder, serious damage to property or disruption to the life of the community.

Public nuisance under common law was also considered. However this offence constitutes injury, loss or damage to the public in general. Undoubtedly the protestors were a nuisance by their presence but they did not commit this offence.

Inspector Lovell reported that there was no effort on behalf of the protestors to damage or enter the building. No one was prevented from entering or exiting the building and the meeting was able to go ahead.
There were 6 phone calls to police between 18:30 and 21:00, four from people inside the venue and two from third parties who were not in attendance.

The first caller was at 18:37 expressing concerns over people outside shouting. During the call they told the call taker that police were arriving on scene.

The second caller was at 19:15 concerned about the banging on windows. During the call they advised the call taker that police were now inside the building and helping.

The next two callers were also from inside the venue who expressed concerns about the banging on windows. One was at 19:24 and another at 19:27 who said that she was scared to leave the venue due to protestors smashing on the glass.

The last two callers were from third parties who had been in contact with people inside the venue. They were alerting the police to the banging on windows. One call was at 20:32 and the other at 20:54

There was only one call from a local resident at 21:20 complaining about the noise from the protestors. However Sussex Police were aware and monitoring the social media posts.

I have viewed Body Worn Video footage from several officers at the event. I have also viewed the video footage obtained by the Public Order Evidence Gathering Team (EGT).

At 19:09 the EGT footage showed a small group at the rear of the building with a few of the protestors banging on windows with their hands. The PLT were speaking with the protestors.

At 19:27 the EGT footage showed a larger group gathering at the rear and many of them were banging on the windows with their hands. The public order teams formed a cordon in front of the windows and the officers were physically pushing the protestors away from the building in order to prevent a Breach of the Peace.

At 19:30 BWV footage showed the officers getting between the protestors and the building to form the cordon, preventing the protestors from banging on the windows. Although some banging could be heard in the background, it was unclear where this was coming from. The footage continued until 20:20 and showed the officers with their backs against the building. The protestors formed a line in front of the police, with their backs to them whilst they continued to shout and chant.

At 21:09 BWV footage showed a protestor telling the group to go to the front of the building as the meeting was coming to an end. She told the protestors make sure they filmed the police and got their ID numbers.

At 21:11 BWV footage showed the police cordon between the protestors and the building, leaving a clear walkway for the attendees to leave the meeting. The protestors continued shouting until everyone had left the building.

The protestors were creating a lot of noise and their chants were not only against WPUK, they included obscenities aimed at the police. The footage supports the reports made by Chief Inspector Sproston and Inspector Lovell. There was no violence and no serious disorder.

Using the core principles, and legal framework set out by the College of Policing in their Authorised Professional Practice, I am satisfied that the event was policed lawfully, proportionately and appropriately.

The Professional Standards Department will retain a copy of your complaint and the local resolution outcome."

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 05/02/2020 20:23

I look forwards to a list of actual aggressive tactics women have literally used.
It will include offering biscuits to people who may be gluten intolerant and forget and accidentally eat one in terror.
It will include...difficult questions.

LangClegsInSpace · 05/02/2020 20:15

Posie's stonewall protest was a single line of women on the other side of a wide, busy road from the venue.

This is what happened at WPUK at the Brighton Labour conference:

(Small correction - It seems the water was thrown by a resident in the flats above. I don't blame them)

Datun · 05/02/2020 20:08

It's worth remembering that WPUK respond to interest. They facilitate meetings that are being asked for by women who live in these towns.

Perhaps it's no coincidence that a town has a large trans population is also one that wants to talk about the erosion of women's rights.

LangClegsInSpace · 05/02/2020 20:07

Blimey, what happened here? Shock Someone had a busy night playing pigeon chess.

WPUK's statement on the event is here:

womansplaceuk.org/2019/09/26/a-womans-place-is-at-conference/

As far as I know they also submitted a complaint about the police response. Does anyone know if they had a reply yet and have they said anything about it?

thehorseandhisboy · 05/02/2020 19:58

Sapphos WPUK take the same line as you - that protests and aggression aren't the way forward.

Which is why they organise public meetings which anyone who is interested in engaging in respectful debate can attend.

Which is why your suggestion that they shouldn't have chosen to meet in Brighton is outrageous.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 05/02/2020 19:32

I have seen sarcasm, Imnobody. And sometimes I would swear there was tutting.

Imnobody4 · 05/02/2020 19:24

aggressive tactics from GC campaigners such as.......?

SapphosRock · 05/02/2020 19:02

Thanks for the link and lengthy post wellbehavedwomen

When you lay it out like that then yes I accept that TRAs are more threatening that GC women.

Let's be clear I condemn the actions of TRAs, as do many trans people and pro LGBT people. I think it's good their behaviour is called out from within.

I also think women are too forgiving of aggressive tactics from GC campaigners but then I don't think protests and aggression are the way forward.

Cuntysnark · 05/02/2020 18:45

Great post wellbehavedwoman

Michelleoftheresistance · 05/02/2020 18:42

It's hugely illustrative of quite how drenched our culture is in misogyny, that women not being placatory and concerned for others (when discussing existential threats to our most basic rights) can be seen as morally equivalent to threats of extreme violence from natal males.

This. In a nutshell.

Michelleoftheresistance · 05/02/2020 18:41

You mean like barging into speaker's corner to try and stalk women going to a meeting and randomly thumping one in the head? (Having first posted on Twitter the intent to head out and 'fuck up some *fs?)

Or like standing up in the middle of a book presentation and taking over, then going berserk at the author for telling them to sit down?

There have been extremists at plenty of the meetings.

wellbehavedwomen · 05/02/2020 18:38

@SapphosRock, please glance through the evidence on this page. Then have a look at the links on it.

There is absolutely no comparison between gender critical women who are, golly gosh, sometimes a bit rude... and the violent, aggressive misogyny aimed at women who won't do what we're told: validate them, and otherwise remain silent. Accept our erasure, and with it, all our rights and protections and provision. Yet our objection is rude? And that's as bad as the carrying of baseball bats, while wearing t shirts with a blood-spatter design, saying, "I punch T*RFS"? As bad as forcing their way into communal changing spaces, heedless of any harm or distress caused to women, by lying about the Equality Act? With threatening rape/slicing spines with brandished knives to any women daring to object? You really, honestly think that equates to "fault on both sides"? Seriously?

It's hugely illustrative of quite how drenched our culture is in misogyny, that women not being placatory and concerned for others (when discussing existential threats to our most basic rights) can be seen as morally equivalent to threats of extreme violence from natal males.

Nobody will have feared Posie would attack them. Every single woman at the WPUK meeting in Brighton would have had that fear - as was the intention. When Maria Machlachlan's assailant went to court, paramilitary-clad young men, masked, with large dogs arrived to intimidate her and her friends. That's an extremely unsubtle male threat display, when male violence aimed at women wanting to talk about women's rights met legal consequences. It's a wholly deliberate effort to scare us into silence. Where is any example, anywhere, of gender critical women behaving in that way? There is none, because it's never happened. The risk to transwomen is fellow natal males, not us. So why are they never challenged, or addressed? Why is provision not sought from them?

This is about misogyny. Males are trying to silence females. By violent misogynistic aggression. We have a very clear example on this thread - the rage from some males when we won't shut the fuck up and defer. When we won't meet the stereotypes that poster set out for us as a suitable instruction manual. It's not been met with an equally aggressive response, has it?

All women want is the right to meet, and discuss, and have a stake on what is being done around our own rights. No woman has ever tried to stop trans people meeting to discuss their own needs, rights and interests, despite the fact that the core of many demands involve removal of our own separate provision. All voices should be heard, is the women's attitude. Only our voices must be heard, is the trans attitude. And any and all approaches to ensure that are justified.

There is no equivalence here. None.

Floisme · 05/02/2020 18:27

What am I reading now? Posie intimidating Stonewall?

Stonewall who - from memory - has the ear of the government, the police, the CPS, NHS and Lord knows how many of our schools and universities.

That Stonewall?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

@MNHQ if we can't have LangCleg back can we please at least have a Laughing Lang emoticon?

Melroses · 05/02/2020 18:14

They prefer to bang on windows. There are never any coherent questions, only mantras.

SapphosRock · 05/02/2020 18:11

Minimising. Assume if two TRAs barged into the meeting in Brighton and started filming one of the speakers while demanding they answer questions that would all be fine? Confused

Melroses · 05/02/2020 18:07

"Stormed"

A bit of a brisk walk?

SapphosRock · 05/02/2020 18:04

I wasn't there for the Stonewall protests so can't comment. I've seen similar anti-abortion protests with gruesome pictures though and it seemed to be on a similar vein.

Personally didn't find the TRAs intimidating in Brighton but can see why others did and they did take it too far the second time.

I'm sure this has been shared before but Simon Fanshawe (co-founder of Stonewall) strongly condemned the Brighton protest. Well done him for standing up for what he believes in. I think it's important to call people out for bad behaviour rather than minimise it, even if you're fundamentally on the same 'side'.

www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,cofounder-of-stonewall-calls-for-calm_14648.htm

Michelleoftheresistance · 05/02/2020 17:56

Don't remember Posie kettling anyone, making bomb threats, harassing venues trying to get meetings cancelled, kicking on windows and screaming abuse, preventing people leaving the building, (all seen with monotonous regularity from our resident UK gender extremist lobby)

Nor incidentally parading around with baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire with which to batter/kill people she has differing views from, nor wearing blood stained t shirts, nor tweeting (constantly) about rape and murder being the solution to lesbians wanting to be lesbian, or female people wanting female spaces.

Just saying.

Actually the sad thing is no one expects (or would tolerate) female people behaving like this. While this behaviour from GI extremists is pretty much considered normal. You'd think the extremists would care more about how this reflects on them and others in the LGBT population and what it does to public perception.

BatShite · 05/02/2020 17:46

A few women have protested a few Stonewall type things. The difference in protest style is huge. Women holding signs and talking to people. 'Trans supporters' (largely older men and some young women) go more for aggression, intimidation, insults and sometimes, actual assault too.

Yet its made out to be a 'both sides are as bad as each other' thing which is total bullshit. The violence and threats, and trying to stop meetings happening at all sometimes..all comes from one side. The one thats mainly populated/controlled by males oddly enough

Cascade220 · 05/02/2020 17:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cascade220 · 05/02/2020 17:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SomeDyke · 05/02/2020 17:30

Did the Police do anything when Posie Parker stormed that trans meeting to confront Sarah McBride?

Stormed? Storming a building/room/meeting would usually require more than one woman just walking in. She didn't even walk in in a particularly 'stormy' way, she just walked in and started asking questions? I've been in meetings where someone has stormed in, and meetings where a group has attempted to storm in, but 'woman walking in quietly and then talking and asking questions' doesn't really fit my definition of 'storming'. But then since my definition of woman doesn't fit the TRA definition, nor do they agree as regards the meaning of 'violence', then maybe they differ as regards 'storming' as well....................

But thanks for providing the evidence as well, saved us all time!

SapphosRock · 05/02/2020 17:28

I see your point but I still think the anti surgery placards from Posie were intimidating. They reminded me too much of anti abortion protestors - perhaps not physically threatening but threatening nonetheless.

BringbackLang · 05/02/2020 17:21

That was in the USA. We're talking about the UK. Women were asked to leave a conference doing nothing other than sitting on a chair and eating pizza (no threats, no abusive words, no banging on windows, bomb threats). Women have had the police called on them for handing out leaflets so yes I believe that it would happen.

SapphosRock · 05/02/2020 17:13

Hmmm I'm not sure. Didn't Posie Parker and co protest a Sonewall conference without any arrests and prosecutions?

Did the Police do anything when Posie Parker stormed that trans meeting to confront Sarah McBride?

I agree that TRA banging on the window was a step too far but it seems they acted within the law.