Impressive new article by Debbie Hayton.

It must be lovely having psychic powers.

I'd rather not discuss what snowblight imagines (yet again), but what Debbie has written. Anyone else with me?

That's called not everyone on MN being the same person, snow.
Some were/are very keen on Debbie, others less so.

I'm sure there were plenty hypocritically biting their tongues, knowing the unhappiness of Hayton's wife, purely because he was useful to their cause.

It's been pointed out thousands of times that FWR is made up of many many different women with different views, and this has been particularly borne out by the varying reactions to Debbie on here. The idea that there's one FWR poster who's in charge of "welcoming" or "tolerating" people or viewpoints is absurd.

Blimey, though, this article. I fervently wish more trans people could articulate honestly their feelings and thought processes - not so anyone can "gotcha" them but so we can understand some part of their identity. "Twaw get over it" and "no debate" simply do not help.

That's called not everyone on MN being the same person, snow.
Some were/are very keen on Debbie, others less so.

Dr Hayton has received a lot of criticism on here for exactly the issues you describe snowblight.

Before seeing the TV documentary which included an interview with Mrs Hayton, I imagine that a lot of people on here were unaware, as I was, that Dr Hayton was married.

It's very rude and I believe breaks talk guidelines to make such comments about Debbie snowblight

I see nothing rude in being concerned about someone's welfare.

Yes, snowblight. The doctors treating Debbie should have exercised more caution and investigated the possibility of AGP before any hormones or surgery were recommended

People being unhappy and wanting to detransition - often after irreversable surgery or harm to the body - is the risk that occurs when affirmation only approach is adopted.

And sex (a real biological fact, as Debbie eloquently discusses) and gender (how you feel inside / your personality) are conflated in policy and practice.

And people chant ridiculous things that don't make any sense like TWAW.

And parents aren't allowed to discuss treatments that might harm their children because they're labelled bigots if they do.

However, although I agree the number of detransitioners will likely skyrocket in the future, Debbie quite explicitly states in the article that transitioning has helped him. Debbie seems to be quite intelligent and his ability to self ID as a transwoman should be the same as anyone else surely? It's very rude and I believe breaks talk guidelines to make such comments about Debbie snowblight

Debbie hasn't been on MN for some time as far as I've noticed but you could argue it was hypocritical of members to tolerate them here for so long. If one of the trans partners/ex-partners of a 'trans widow' appeared I'm sure they would be given short shrift, yet Debbie has been tolerated, and even welcomed, despite their wife's obvious discomfort, because they write a few articles that are useful to the GC cause.

Are there really a significant number of people who would not see a glaring problem. with a self confessed autogynephile, in women's clothes, teaching children? Telling them to call them Miss and using (certainly until lately) facilities for females?

Has Hayton denounced the NASUWT policy he helped to write? The one that recommends self id for teachers?
It's policies like the NASUWT guidance that have led to this situation where women like Maya Frostater lose their jobs for saying that sex is immutable. In a saner world, male teachers who demand to be called 'Miss' would be disciplined and/or referred to therapy.

Yes, snowblight. The doctors treating Debbie should have exercised more caution and investigated the possibility of AGP before any hormones or surgery were recommended.

Although AGP adds a huge layer of oh hell no the fact remains that it's not appropriate for any males to be in women's spaces. So although it would be great if we could talk about that and get the public to a point where they have a realistic understanding of what it is and what proportion of male transitioners it represents I fear that what's actually going to happen is furious denial followed if that doesn't work by attempts to insist that every individual wanting access to women's spaces is No True AGP.

I wonder if Debbie would be happier if they just detransitioned? Their life seems quite sad.

I imagine there will be an argument over true trans etc; agp isn't welcome under the umbrella

Yes, but it doesn't matter.

We can never tell just from looking who's AGP and who's not but we can sure as hell tell a male body from a female body. (as can other non-human mammals such as dogs - regardless of what the person in question is wearing).

For safeguarding of children, there needs to be sex - not gender - segregation. For safety, privacy and dignity of women and children there needs to be sex (not gender) segregation.

Debbie seems to now understand this basic fact. I get why some people are uncomfortable with his stance in the past and concerned about his wife, but Debbie is a scientist and although it has taken some time has come out on the side of science and fact. Which I think is overall a good thing. I hope his wife is OK. It can't be easy being in this marriage - even though I suppose it's probably better that he's being honest at least.

Ah Temptress I see reading back that does look confusing!!

OMG, JollyYellaHumberElla, for a moment, I silently commiserated with you on your DH situation.

It sounds like Debbie is going though a process of awakening understanding. The tragedy is that doctors have allowed Debbie to go right down the road of surgery and hormones before that process is complete.

If I was a fly on the wall, I would think that seeing this play out in a real life, real time way is absolutely fascinating.

DH did use women’s spaces in the past, but has also been critical of TRA positions. DH engaged with women (sometimes on here) about their entitlement to women’s facilities. It was hotly debated. DH elects to no longer use them.

Now this. But of course none of us are flies on walls are we? We are all involved. Whether we want to be or not, and the facts of DH’s admission are that many women and girls will have been unwittingly playing a role that they may not knowingly have consented to.

I'm quite amazed at how little call there seems to be for solid, quality research - this could only help everyone, surely?

No, it won't help the TRAs, will it? Actual, scientific, impartial research would blow their arguments about 'feelings' and 'identity' out of the water. But no one will will touch this research with a barge pole, because of the hateful backlash it would unleash. In the 21st century in the western world we're in the unbelievable situation of our public discourse and our scientific study being held to ransom by a small number of militant activists determined to shut down any and all debate, while simultaneously ensuring that trans ideology is taught in every classroom in the country.

I agree that the causes and possible reasons for gender dysphoria really need to be discussed and more widely considered.

Co-morbidity is another thing that should be investigated, thoroughly. I've said before that I'm quite amazed at how little call there seems to be for solid, quality research - this could only help everyone, surely?

For their own emotional purposes, members of a militant and vociferous group within our own ranks have found a way to embed a lie at the very heart of our public discussion about gender.

For the rest of society to acquiesce to this lie is not only a betrayal of science, but of democracy. When society realises that there is no rational basis for gender ideology, the backlash may be very severe indeed.

Whatever problems there are with this individual and/or the writing of this article as part of his paraphilia, I wholeheartedly agree with this.

Seriously, no woman should be an unwitting participant in a man's fetish.

And as for making children participate...