Impressive new article by Debbie Hayton.

If so, it's at least partly down to the pushback from women. When he was first challenged about his use of women's spaces, he said he found it amusing.

That does not surprise me. I've seen other posters with similar arrogant attitudes of 'you can't stop us from using women's spaces' in response to women's concerns.

I wonder if Debbie has or will ever acknowledge the role of women's pushback in their change of views....

However, I have gradually come to see Debbie's apparent willingness to continually place himself in the public eye by being active on Twitter, various articles, shifting of position, etc. as being part of his need for constant validation.

I wonder how much, putting aside any theories about being trans, there is also ego at work here? I get the impression Debbie enjoys the media attention, the big following on Twitter etc. I remember them once coming on here and saying they could help as they were an 'intellectual' which seemed a slightly arrogant thing to say.

When I first came across Debbie I have to admit I held her up as the acceptable face of a trans woman. However, I have gradually come to see Debbie's apparent willingness to continually place himself in the public eye by being active on Twitter, various articles, shifting of position, etc. as being part of his need for constant validation. I no longer view these as simply attempts to explain the reasoning behind his presentation as a woman but feel as if I have been somehow "used" and complicit in his delusion. Debbie really should be seeking professional therapy to sort herself out. From personal experience, this does help.

The ‘born in the wrong body’ narrative underpins the whole gender ideology and is very damaging implying that sex stereotypes are innate, and providing a reason to transition children. Challenging this theory of gender dysphoria with other robust narratives is a good thing in my opinion.

It is quite possible that Debbie's own opinions and self-awareness has evolved over time

If so, it's at least partly down to the pushback from women. When he was first challenged about his use of women's spaces, he said he found it amusing.

that’s a decent article. i take issue with one or two bits of it, but overall seems sensible and balanced.

I can imagine that the backlash will be quite severe. But I think the party line from trans activism will be as snowblight has so helpfully laid out the bare bones of: Debbie is No True Trans, and should immediately be purged and cancelled from both sides of the debate before anyone else gets infected by the contagious ideas.

Of course, the rule of trans activism is that you can’t tell anyone what their gender identity is because ACCEPTANCE WITHOUT EXCEPTION but...um...oh dear, this is awkward.

I wonder if it's because Debbie is off-brand and is therefore undermining the cause that Debbie is being encouraged to detransition?

Or is it because of that popular (and convenient) misconception that doctors won't allow AGPs to transition? It's just as true trans as HSTS, in the sense that AGP type behaviour doesn't prevent them from getting a GD diagnosis, although originally the 2 year waiting period was intended to exclude them to some extent.

Hacsi Horvath has posted some interesting excerpts from older literature. One describes a patient's request for gender reassignment as a hostile gesture towards the wife - which would have sounded ridiculous to me until I read about transwidows' experiences.

mobile.twitter.com/givethemseeds/status/1218279906573873152

mobile.twitter.com/givethemseeds/status/1218268729089257472

Being critical of gender identity ideology is not confined to feminists.

Lots of people might not be particularly interested in the transgender issue from a feminist perspective, but they do care about things like free speech, people being harassed and fired for voicing disagreement, schools promoting ideological propaganda and young people being swayed into making irreversible decisions, science denialism and shutting down of any critical research into the area of transgenderism, secret lobbying without adequate political scrutiny, women's sports being affected, their daughters or elderly female relatives not having access to single sex services or same sex staff etc.

You don't need to be a feminist, nor be involved in feminist theory and analysis to find the growing extremism of trans ideology deeply worrying.

The more that people speak out about their thoughts and concerns and experiences, the better - parents, teachers, scientists, medical practitioners, politicians, civil servants, right-wing voters, left-wing voters, transsexuals, LGB activists, detransitioners, and so on.
Everyone is coming from different angles and viewpoints and it is vital that the snowball effect keeps going. There will be some overlap with feminism, and disagreements in other aspects. That's ok. This isn't some minor spat between different factions in feminism as I once used to think. This is a deeply regressive and authoritarian ideology that has serious ramifications on our society.

I don't know much about Debbie Hayton, but the article seemed balanced and insightful. It is a useful resource for those who aren't familiar with AGP or think feminists are mistaken for discussing it because it is 'unrepresentative of the trans community'.
It is quite possible that Debbie's own opinions and self-awareness has evolved over time and it must have been difficult to be open about something like AGP.

Their voice adds to the discussion and the harassment they have endured due to being public about their opinions shows how even trans people are not safe from the gender extremists.

I'd imagine that a fair few TRAs hearts sank upon reading the article. I wonder how they will try to deflect from it?

I'd imagine that a fair few TRAs are trying to deflect from it without having actually read it.

I've been mistrustful of Debbie since I heard that he made his students call him "Miss," (hopefully he's stopped that now?) and a few other things.

But when a man is willing to acknowledge their AGP, and recognize that they have no claim whatsoever to women's spaces or language, and no claim to expect anyone to (out of politeness or in response to coercion) to pretend we think he or any man is a women, I can respect him. In fact, I want to support them, especially for the sake of young or naive AGP men who are getting sucked into this batshit ideology.

And if they want to go around in dresses and make up, that will help break the idiotic stereotype that such things are really a part of womanhood.

I'm disgusted by the porny ones, but I'd like to see porniness decoupled from what's supposedly "feminine." (Obviously not what AGPs are trying to do, but anyway...)
The more AGP is exposed and understood, the better it is for women who are deciding whether to enter relationships or not.

I don't know whether talking about a 'free pass' is accurate. It's possible to welcome honest input from people like Debbie whilst at the same time being concerned about what AGP means for safeguarding, medical gatekeeping, the law and so on.

snow I'm so impressed that you've understood the issue for transwidows, really pleased to see you understand the impact on those women. Nice one.

Whatever my views, I certainly wouldn't give someone a free pass just because they're useful to a certain cause - as plenty of people have done here with Debbie.

YY Kittens. The lack of appropriate gatekeeping is absolutely scandalous.

Lol at Snowblight "misgendering" DH. They know well what sex a person is. Haha.grin

I'm happy to be polite to Debbie just as I would to Miranda in terms of pronouns. Debbie says they're male and has said they're not overly fussed which pronouns are used so I'll use the ones which seem to match their thoughts on themself.

Detransition won't press some sort of reset button.

Also, people aren't starfish - once bits have been surgically removed they don't grow back. Which is rather a good argument in favor of much greater gatekeeping.

I wonder if it's because Debbie is off-brand and is therefore undermining the cause that Debbie is being encouraged to detransition?

I wonder if Debbie would be happier if they just detransitioned?

It's not 'just detransition', though snowblight is it? We are talking about life changing surgery, possible job loss, poor mental health and the wider effect on family. Detransition won't press some sort of reset button.

Anyway. I think that Debbie and others like h** have an important voice in this discussion. I don't consent to unwitting participation in a person's paraphilia and would far rather that they were upfront about it.

Fascinating and I think it's huge that Debbie has calmly and clearly set out that agp is real.

I received a pm from a friend last year when I shared someone else's post saying why mixed sex loos were a bad thing. She demanded to know where I was getting my information ... as agp was a myth. I wish I'd had this to share then.

Yes, I'm concerned for Mrs H, and concerned about the children instructed to participate in the fantasy.

But the fact that a scientist and writer is promoting this conversation from lived experience is a great step.

Well yes, in that it helps me understand what some people may mean by identifying as a trans woman. I still think your average person has no real idea what it means other than some notion of being born in the wrong body etc

Lol at Snowblight "misgendering" DH. They know well what sex a person is. Haha.

I see nothing rude in being concerned about someone's welfare

Well suggesting someone who's explicitly said they don't want to detransition should detransition isn't exactly affirmation without exception is it?

As for being concerned about welfare - that's what so many different women with different viewpoints have been saying and is why we were all so upset when Lang was banned for caring about the welfare of kids.

"Twaw get over it" and "no debate" simply do not help.

Does this help, though? I mean, given that Stonewall long since committed to including crossdressers under the trans umbrella and M&S seems to see them as an essential market segment I guess I'm just not convinced that it's going to make any difference to those who've chosen the "be inclusive at any cost" path.