Impressive new article by Debbie Hayton.

relentlessly antagonistic

Or me just expressing an opinion.

But you are right, I don't know what his motivation was for writing the piece.

Maybe my frustration is with the women who label the article impressive and those who think that hayton's opinion and inclusion here is worth the risk of excluding women on feminist chat.

For what it's worth, I think it's a worded in such a way that anyone can read anything into it that they want.

I think the comment "I may have transitioned socially, medically and surgically, but I am as male now as I was the day I was born..." is hayton asserting that woman can be male as well as female, because what else has he social, medically and surgically transitioned to and from?

Good for you, Justhadathought. I'm sure your support and admiration will be used productively

The only difference is that he is expressing those thoughts publically and women want to praise him for it

Not everything needs to be so relentlessly antagonistic and battle ready. Sometimes things can simply be welcome and/or timely. Whoever is relaying the message.

It's been a while since I was here, but I wanted to know what people thought about that piece so I came looking

Couldn't be any clearer

We all see and respond to situations differently......there is no single group mind. I welcome Debbie's words.......even as I recognise much of what others have said. I'm not sure I feel the need to crucify Debbie myself. Debbie is perfectly capable of crucifying themselves. We all are.

It's been a while since I was here, but I wanted to know what people thought about that piece so I came looking.

Couldn't be any clearer!

@SpartacusAutisticus I have updated the piece.

I am much more concerned about these women being isolated than I am about where an AGP male is in their cycle.

I agree.

I suspect that what hayton is experiencing is very normal thought process for lots of male transpeople. The only difference is that he is expressing those thoughts publically and women want to praise him for it.

This is 'feminist chat', not 'let's debate what feminism is' so I would assume that ensuring as many women are included as possible would be a priority.

For me it wasn’t just insisting on being called “miss” that makes me mistrustful of Mr. Hayton, but other things which have been mentioned her, plus a couple of things he wrote in his blogpost about prisons.

debbiehayton.wordpress.com/2019/03/29/are-transgender-prison-wings-the-answer/

Debbie speculates on the unlikely scenario where he is incarcerated, and makes some excellent points but:

My request to be housed in the female estate would be based on my sex characteristics. Flesh and blood is more important than feelings

Say no more....

Off the topic of Debbie but on the topic of AGP, there was a short thread on here about the then- new Twitter account @AGPAwarenessDay , speculating on whether they were just taking the piss. I think they’re on the up and up, they also posted Debbie’s article.

I respect their stated goal of destigmatizing AGP in the trans community.

You should take that up with Hayton since they are the one who made the claim, Staffori.

I've been mistrustful of Debbie since I heard that he made his students call him "Miss," (hopefully he's stopped that now?) and a few other things.

I don't believe this ever happened in the first place. Presumably Debbie wasn't called 'Sir' before transition. Why would he be when his correct academic title was and still is 'Dr'?

Lauding transsexuals and autogynephiles in feminist spaces directly harms trans widows by excluding them from said space- spaces that were set up to support women. Imagine needing the help of other women but being unable to avail yourself of it because your husband had got there first?

I am much more concerned about these women being isolated than I am about where an AGP male is in their cycle.

SomeDyke

I don't find TRAs wanting to deny this stuff so odd, really. But I do find it really odd that some people in the psychiatric world, who are dealing with gender issues, seem to deny that it is a thing. I used to be friendly with a lady's whose son, age 18, was struggling seriously with what looked to be like AGP though he claimed (at the time, not now) to be trans. Not that I know for sure that's what it was, but everything seemed to point that way, that it was what would have been called a transvestite.

She took him to any number of psychiatrists, and none of them suggested that as a possibility. In fact she'd never heard about it. Similarly with a gender specialist that I know socially, she claims it's basically made up.

It just seems odd to me.

Yeah, not everyone has a problem with men posting here. There need to be places to have robust discussions too, on all kinds of topics. Not all discussions are meant to be support groups, nor should they be.

There is considerable writing in this area by other autogynephilic males in a professional capacity:

www.annelawrence.com/autogynephilia.html

And still interesting to see how much hassle it still gets from the obvious suspects. The TRAs really don't like the idea that autogynephilia even exists. Nope, all out-dated, old-fashioned, nothing to see here, it doesn't even exist..............

There is no such thing as true trans and AGP is neither victimless nor should it be destigmatised.

Debbie is continually trying to push himself on feminists and into feminist arguments and forum, taking away wens voices. First and foremost his wife's voice who is a tranwidow and the first and most important victim in Debbie's fetish.

Please don't give him fodder for his fetish as that all he's here for

Lauding transsexuals and autogynephiles in feminist spaces directly harms trans widows by excluding them from said space- spaces that were set up to support women. Imagine needing the help of other women but being unable to avail yourself of it because your husband had got there first?

Purist arguments aren't going to turn this juggernaut around. And if it happens, it is going to have to happen in stages. The Overton window shifts a pane at a time. Debbie is helping that shift, whatever his personal motives.

We are in a bizarre situation where the average person, if they had a scooby about what is going on, would not sign up to it. But that has not stopped Stonewall et getting a huge head start. They are better funded. They are streets ahead of us.

And in truth, the women I meet who would be dead against Karen Whites and Veronica Ivys would still support those like Debbie because the born in the wrong body narrative has gained hold and elicits much sympathy.

So although I'm a purist at heart, I'm a pragmatist when it comes down to it and Debbie's contribution is valuable. The end will justify the means.

I think suppositions that writing an article like this is about getting a sexual thrill are highly speculative.

And does it matter, in the end? People need to know about AGP. Not enough people are willing to talk about it, for very valid reasons. It is brave to step up and say "I am an autogynephile" - we already know how much TRAs like to paint their opponents as perverts (when they're not painting them as prudes) so goodness know what kind of attacks DH may be targeted with after this admission. Especially when we all know that any mention of autogynephilia triggers huge amounts of rage from the usual suspects.

Who has completely pure motives? Who isn't driven by ego, to some extent? I am damn sure I wouldn't stand up to the same amount of scrutiny DH is getting. I think Debbie is being brave, and doing good.

I'll definitely take the time to watch the Benjamin Boyce video.

It's been a while since I was here, but I want ed to know what people thought about that piece so I came looking.

My position has moved massively in four years. In early 2016 I still thought I was some sort of woman and I got very upset when challenged because I couldn't defend my claims without resorting to gobbledegook.

I won't repeat my latest piece on this thread but just wanted to say thanks for the criticism - positive and negative - I do listen carefully to what is said in response to my pieces.

Just to reassure the powers that be here that I don't care about pronouns ... unless they are dehumanising pronouns (it / its) as have been used elsewhere.

I think Debbie has been on a bit of a journey with this (their identity and how it relates to, and impacts, women) and has actually come a long way since 2 years or so ago (so I don't hold it against him that he laughingly dismissed his use of female loos).

The interview he did with Benjamin Boyce a few days ago was very honest, and I'd say critical of their own identity and the ways it is damaging. It's worth a listen.

I appreciate Debbie's voice in this, and his support of women challenging it. I also appreciate him speaking up about the AGP and complexities of that as it does take a certain amount of bravery.

What I find so difficult about this is that I want to read in good faith and believe that someone is telling the truth.

Unfortunately, my experience in this area has taught me that I can never taken anything at face value.

I find that deeply depressing and one of the worst consequences of this whole ideology.

lessen both, even

I think this was an interesting and useful article.
I think suppositions that writing an article like this is about getting a sexual thrill are highly speculative.

In my experience trying to talk with people about AGP often falls flat because they can't quite get their heads around how it works. They can't imagine themselves thinking or feeling that way, or in any way that seems similar, so they tend to dismiss it as made up. So I think it's extremely useful to have someone try and describe what it's like or even just say they experience it.

My sense from the article was that Debbie was not describing presenting as a woman in an everyday way as directly a sexual thrill. More that one of the wider effects of the paraphilia was a strong sense of discomfort or disassociation with a male body on a daily basis. I imagine this as a sense of duality or disassociation from self, but that is very much my own thought and might not be accurate. and the transitioning was meant to alleviate that aspect rather than be a sexual act in a direct way.

I do wonder if that would actually be the best way to treat the problem, as it seems to have so many downsides, including that I would think that it would further tend to increase the paraphilia and accompanying sense of disassociation. Trying to lesson both seems like a better option to me, strengthening the sense of self as male or unified - I'm not sure how that would look, but I would like to see that sort of approach as the first one and also attempts to try and make it more effective.

On the other hand it may simply be that in some cases, for whatever reason these paraphilias develop and they are resistant to treatment, and people have to make do with less than ideal solutions. Which unfortunately included their families. In such cases though I think it would be much better for the individuals and their spouses if they could honestly acknowledge the nature of the problem, rather than being told their spouse is really a woman and they should be happy that they are now fulfilled.