Stewart Lee

Bloody hell I've just googled it and already have it but i see he has others I haven't read!!

Ooh serendipity thanks, I didn't know SL had a book about his stand-up - will give it a read. I've got his novel somewhere but I didn't really get into it..

I used to be a massive fan of Josie Long back in the day (first saw her supporting SL, to no laughter whatsoever except from me and dh) but I had to walk out of one of her gigs a few years ago - not cos I was offended, but other reasons plus the singer who was supporting was doing my head in (won't name her as I'm sure she's very nice but she's definitely not GC!)

Why? The majority of successful standup comedians employ people to write for them, any trace of anything creative leaves them when demand is higher than they can produce material.

There's a huge difference between people like Michael McIntyre, who is very old school, and certainly does have a team of writers, and comedians such as Stewart Lee, Richard Herring, James Acaster, Sara Pascoe, Lucy Porter, Holly Walsh etc who almost certainly write their own stuff. They tend to put their own very personal stamp on things. And a lot of those comedians are also writers - Stewart Lee, Acaster, Herring and Pascoe have all written books. As indeed have countless other comedians (David Baddiel, Robert Webb and Jo Brand spring to mind, not to mention the awful David Walliams).

I've been disappointed not to see Jo Brand come out in support of gc feminists. Robert Webb did, briefly, then deleted his tweet. Essentially, the ones who aren't stupid, by and large, are cowards.

Who does actually get it? Graham Linehan (but he's not a standup). Ben Elton. Ricky Gervais, up to a point. Is that it?

Robert Webb (again not a standup) gets it I think but hasn't actually publicly stood up for women and girls yet.How not to be a boy is good and I can't believe anyone who wrote that could really truly believe TWAW.

I think anyone who gets money from the BBC is scared of speaking up.

Shakespeare broke the 4th wall
So did Miranda
So did Stewart on his Vehicle thing.
I think it's fair to characterise SL as a writer
You clearly didn't read his fiction novel then

Not all comedians have writing teams, only the big stars. SL would have some help for his TV show (Armando Ianucci for one) but doubt he does for his stand up tours.

Actual critical thinkers tend to be writers.

I think it's fair to characterise SL as a writer. "The life and deaths of a standup comedian" is a very well written exploration of some of ins and outs of standup comedy. It includes annotated transcripts of 3 of his shows, where the ideas behind the routine are explained.

Jimmy Carr also has quite a forensic interest in comedy.

you expect comedians to have a bit more in the way of critical-thinking skills

Why?
The majority of successful standup comedians employ people to write for them, any trace of anything creative leaves them when demand is higher than they can produce material.

Actual critical thinkers tend to be writers.

Shakespeare broke the 4th wall.

Their attitude is very common in their industry though. Even worse with the younger ones. It's like a competition to see who can be the most compassionat and woke.

This is so true. You're right about Josie Long, but it's true of all of them, really. Nish Kumar, James Acaster, Sara Pascoe, the whole darn' lot of them. It's interesting in a way - you expect comedians to have a bit more in the way of critical-thinking skills. (Not the Bernard Manning type of comedian, but the more modern, politicised ones.)

Who does actually get it? Graham Linehan (but he's not a standup). Ben Elton. Ricky Gervais, up to a point. Is that it?

I do think they need to wise up when it comes to grasping the hostility trans activists have towards women's rights.

Their attitude is very common in their industry though. Even worse with the younger ones. It's like a competition to see who can be the most compassionat and woke.
Also, women comedians are as bad for it (if not worse) - Josie Long is particularly notable, but I have heard several call Linehan a hateful transphobe.

I thought he was bang on about the whole fourth-wall thing. It amazed me the way the media kept going on about Fleabag breaking the fourth wall as if it was something new and clever when people have been doing it for years

Slightly off-topic, but yes, it reminded me of Miranda.

I definitely don't think Richard Herring and Stewart Lee are women haters, more that they subscribe to the 'why can't everyone just be kind' school of thought on this. To be honest I used to think exactly the same thing until I learned more about it and started to see the potential impact on existing women's rights and how this needed to be acknowledged rather than shouted down. It seems more common for men to have this attitude.

I looked up his latest column in the Observer (thinking, wrongly, this was what you are talking about) and enjoyed it,

I thought he was bang on about the whole fourth-wall thing. It amazed me the way the media kept going on about Fleabag breaking the fourth wall as if it was something new and clever when people have been doing it for years. As he says, when Mrs Brown's Boys does it no one seems to think it's clever at all. The critics don't even mention it. (I am slightly sceptical about whether he actually thinks Mrs Brown's Boys is funny, though.)

Anyway, I don't think either Richard Herring or Stewart Lee are woman-haters but I do think they need to wise up when it comes to grasping the hostility trans activists have towards women's rights. Not quite sure why it's taking so long. You only have to look at the footage from Seattle on Saturday night to start asking (to quote Mitchell and Webb): Are we the baddies?

The contempt for Mumsnet is one of the most glaring examples of cultural misogyny I've ever seen. Silly chattering empty headed women wittering about prosecco and prams.

Agree. So many people do it, it's hardly cutting edge.

Men do it through, well, sheer misogyny really.

Women do it to say "Oh, not me, LOL! I'm not like those silly chattering women/manhaters/transphobes*."
*Delete as applicable.

What did Stewart Lee actually say, as the 'mumsnet punchline'? I looked up his latest column in the Observer (thinking, wrongly, this was what you are talking about) and enjoyed it, whereas normally I prefer David Mitchell's writing (they seem to alternate).

I don't think Richard Herring (seriously? International Men's Day?) and Stewart Lee are woman haters.

I reckon that the past 20 or so years have seen a structural shift in the human brain. Thanks to Google. Whereas before we had to hold entire sentences in our heads to grasp the meanings within, thanks to Google (and it's ilk) everything is deconstructed to keywords for searching. So people just hear a keyword and immediately find the appropriate response Google-fashion. Any nuance, subtly or irony completely stripped away. Quite, SerendipityJane

Richard Herring did a routine, as part of his Hitler Moustache show, where he concluded "Maybe the racists are right". If you quoted that and ignored the rest, you'd have missed the point of what he was saying completely.

A lot did

I reckon that the past 20 or so years have seen a structural shift in the human brain. Thanks to Google. Whereas before we had to hold entire sentences in our heads to grasp the meanings within, thanks to Google (and it's ilk) everything is deconstructed to keywords for searching. So people just hear a keyword and immediately find the appropriate response Google-fashion. Any nuance, subtly or irony completely stripped away.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwkEEqXT3uQ

Nuance, eh ?

That was hilarious. But I can see that if you have no concept of irony you might not get it.
Comedians don't always believe the things they're saying. It's a comedic technique to either adopt a persona, or say things from the point of view of a third person.
Quoted word for word, out of context, and attributing the opinions to the comedian is crazy.
Richard Herring did a routine, as part of his Hitler Moustache show, where he concluded "Maybe the racists are right". If you quoted that and ignored the rest, you'd have missed the point of what he was saying completely.

His humour - which basically involves going on long, rambling detours around a topic - wouldn't work on a panel show. And he knows perfectly well that going on a panel show would undermine his credibility as the kind of comedian he is.

Just remembered a few years ago, someone started a thread about how they used to fancy Stewart Lee until he'd let himself go. He referenced that in his act. The person who started the thread then came back on Mumsnet excited that he'd mentioned it. It was all a bit bonkers, but quite funny and good-humoured.

It's because they are all represented by the same talent agents, the ones with connections at the BBC.

I always find it telling which comedians get lots of work on panel shows

SL mentions that a few times in his act - he also shows why.

Mind you, according to Lee Mack, he's a cultural bully from OxBridge that couldn't cut the mustard on a panel show.

Only you don't cut mustard, you spread it .

Using Mumsnet as some kind of trope about women is lazy sexist stereotyping, and when I hear people do it, I think less of them.

Yes, me too.

I do think on balance it is to our advantage that people underestimate the level of debate and the sharing of facts and evidence on here. There are some incredibly clever women I've encountered on here who could run rings around anyone else no matter their education or background. There are lawyers, doctors, CEOs but no-one who's a misogynist believes any of this could be true on a site called 'mumsnet'. Because being a Mum and being a) intelligent and / or b) successful are obviously - in their limited minds- mutually exclusive.

I don't know if it's because this sexist belief is so deeply held that they then get incredibly angry when women on here talk and take action about important things like women's rights and child safeguarding.

I always find it telling which comedians get lots of work on panel shows. There are some that I think don’t play well with others.

I like the "moving to the country" thing. Some of his stuff is funny, but I bet he's a right knob in real life. I say this because he reminds me of certain 40 something east London dwelling, vinyl collecting, ex-punk but-now-loaded men who always shout you down in pub conversation because they know everything and deep down they think women are a bit stupid.
Men like him might think TWAW but they sure know which type of women to talk down to. Same old same old.

It was Sarah Vine who called Gervais 'the Wokefinder General'. Stew is, as ever, taking the piss.