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Original poster

The basic illogicality of internal "gender identity"

37 replies

Dolorabelle · 31/01/2020 21:24

I was reflecting on something a man I know (not a friend) who has subsequently transitioned to transwoman said about 'gender identity.'

As a man, he was staunchly anti-feminist, and also pretty anti-women - not a very likeable person , socially difficult etc but he was adamant about having an understanding of gender identity and mansplaining it to me, when faced with the standard understanding of the distinction between sex (biological) and gender (socially/historically constructed roles).

Anyway, he tried to explain it like this: "It's an internal sense of being a man or a woman." Well, yes, we've heard that before ...

But it got me thinking:

This was a man who was clearly uncomfortable in a masculine gender stereotype.

So - without ANY actual knowledge of women, he simply assumed that as he was so unhappy & uncomfortable as a man, he just must be a woman.

HOW DOES HE KNOW?

I'm still obviously rolling this over in my mind a couple of years later (he's since had some medical transition - I suspect just the DD artificial boobs* insert, not the "bottom" surgery).

It's the most illogical and totally BINARY thinking I've come across. I've been gender critical since before it was a thing - I agreed with Germaine Greer about the admission of a transwoman to a women's single sex college at Cambridge way back when.

But I still can't get my head around this. As women, I think it's a pretty common experience to struggle with socially constructed (and constraining) gender roles of femininity - there's no essentialist reason why the ability to bear children, for example, necessarily makes us generally more "nurturing." We might love & care for our own children , and not give a toss for anyone else's.

But when I was 13 and realised that life and the world was totally unfair on women, I didn't immediately think "Oh, crikey I must be a 13 year old boy then" I struggled both personally and politically with patriarchy. I became a feminist. I changed & challenged myself.

So this man - now transwoman, but (so I don't get deleted) he was definitely a man when we had this conversation - just decided that although he could do things to challenge the masculine stereotypes, that wasn't it. Because he didn't like being a man, he must necessarily be a woman.

It's just bonkers in its illogicality.

*I hate this word for breasts, but in this instance "boobs" is appropriate.

OP posts:
Original poster
Dolorabelle · 05/02/2020 09:12

Do you still have to be subjected to it or have you managed to avoid being in their company?

No thank goodness, they've stopped attending the activity where I encountered him (NOTE: this person was male at that point, and is I think NOT on a GRC pathway, so it's all self-ID). They complained that the rest of us didn't include them in our general conversations. Which was not true - we tried. And this person is not a friend - please don't refer to them that way. As someone commented to me at the time, you can have mental health issues and still be an arsehole.

But it has stayed with me - this utterly illogical binary - that if you aren't comfortable as a man, then the ONLY thing that means is that you're a woman.

It's bonkers.

OP posts:
NonnyMouse1337 · 05/02/2020 08:26

Here's a Twitter thread on some of the history of 'gender identity'.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1224766770805866499.html

MoleSmokes great resources, thanks for sharing.

Goosefoot · 05/02/2020 02:38

Ugh, humans have. Not sure where that apostrophe wandered in from.

Goosefoot · 05/02/2020 02:37

Well, I don't know.

I think the gender narrative as it exists now is pretty dumb, and it isn't in line with actual scientific knowledge about identity.

However, identity is a thing. We can have a tribal identity, a national identity, even a sense of personal identity, family identity. These are all constructed but clearly they reflect a capacity of sorts that human's have, probably as a way of creating group cohesion. I don't see why we'd not have a gender identity.

I do think it would clarify a lot if we called it a sexual identity though I don't think it would actually be an incorrect use of gender to use that word for it.

Durgasarrow · 05/02/2020 02:29

It really is unbelievable. One thing I find utterly amazing is how these newly-hatched ladies have a whole bunch of people they could check in with to see if they're getting it right, but somehow, they never seem to have any questions, and in fact, from day one, they seem to be much more expert on what a woman is than the ones who've been Assigned the job from day 1.

MoleSmokes · 04/02/2020 23:11

FebruaryRainandSleet - "I'd always assumed it was from reading, and thinking 'that person's inner monologue sounds like mine/I identify with this character'. "

Ah! The "Wuthering Heights" Theory! (I just made that up) Smile

However, that is far from the lived experience of those like the OP's friend, as recounted in the days before they learned to construct a more socially acceptable narrative. See this brief report with its proposal of a "Five Step Career Path" in a study reported 50 years ago:
www.tbuckner.com/TRANSVES.HTM

Reading is a pleasurable, solitary activity that can indeed lead to a journey of self-discovery. However, It is a quite different solitary, pleasurable preoccupation that is at play in most such cases.

This online forum for those who are trying to kick the habit, a place where conversations and confessions happen out of earshot of mums, wives, sisters and female friends is (WARNING!) NSFW:
www.reddit.com/r/TGandSissyRecovery/

Whether you peeked/peaked and have now recovered or if you just skipped over that link, Kay Brown's website "On the Science of Changing Sex" has some relevant articles:

( "Kay Brown is an eminent transactivist who transitioned as a teenager over four decades ago exploring the science of transsexuality and transgender experience." Kay is on Mumsnet as @sillyolme
ps. That website is not to be confused with the similarly named transactivist site "sillyolyou")

1. On Acceptance of Autogynephilia
sillyolme.wordpress.com/2017/12/12/on-acceptance-of-autogynephilia/

2. Advice for Wives/Girlfriends of Autogynephiles
Or, “Help! My Husband Wants A Sex Change!”
sillyolme.wordpress.com/advice-for-wivesgirlfriends-of-autogynephiles/

3. Once Again, With Feeling…
Or, How Do We REALLY Know That There Are Two Types of Transwomen?
sillyolme.wordpress.com/2017/02/04/once-again-with-feeling/

4. A Clinical View
sillyolme.wordpress.com/2014/02/14/a-clinical-view/

5. The Elephant in the Room
"Or, Is the “Third Type” of MTF Transgender Simply Mentally Ill ??"
sillyolme.wordpress.com/2017/11/09/the-elephant-in-the-room/

(I am not suggesting that this last article applies to the OP's friend but it seems important to include a link as a follow-on from No. 3 above.)

  • - - - -

I try to read widely around the subject of Gender Identity, including "transactivist" points of view as well as Gender Critical perspectives. However, Kay makes this point in another Mumsnet thread "Break It Down For Me?"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3145470-Break-it-down-for-me#92523584

SillyOlMe said:

"I'm the author of the linked essay on autogynephilia. Transwomen, both hsts and agp who attempt to write about autogynephilia are just as suppressed, perhaps even more so, given that doxxing and outing one as trans, especially for hsts that are deep stealth, is the constant threat should one break the silence and write about the subject in an honest manner. Here is a link to another essay I wrote ten years ago:

www.transkids.us/invisible.html

And the aftermath of having written that essay:

sillyolme.wordpress.com/2014/12/09/what-the-next-wave-of-transgender-activists-need-to-know/

  • - - - -

That last article was written in Dec 2014:

"What the NEXT Wave of Transgender Activists Need to Know"

"This post marks five years of writing on the subject. It seems a good moment to stop and reflect on the reasons I’ve been writing, and to explore what has changed in my lifetime. I’ve tried to keep the material mostly about the science and its implications. It hasn’t always been easy, as there is in the background, from what I would call the “Second Wave” of transactivists, a powerful and very ugly, campaign of disinformation. Why do I say, “Second Wave”? Because I, and a few folks I knew from the ’70s and very early ’80s, were the “First Wave”."

Continues at:
sillyolme.wordpress.com/2014/12/09/what-the-next-wave-of-transgender-activists-need-to-know/

  • - - - -

BTW The thread "Break it down for me?" has lots of useful links and discussion if you have not seen it already:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?

JoJoWasAManWhoThought · 04/02/2020 09:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

FebruaryRainandSleet · 04/02/2020 09:24

How could that be? Are they mind readers?? Where do they get these ideas of what it might "feel like" to be a woman?? Maybe close observation and study of women performing "femininity" in the Woman Zoo?

I'd always assumed it was from reading, and thinking 'that person's inner monologue sounds like mine/I identify with this character'.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 04/02/2020 08:49

Basically they're asking which clan do I feel I should be in?

This is it - it's a mad continuation of all those quizzes about which hogwarts house you belong in.

The trouble is that it's actually real, and a serious subject that they've brought down to the level of no-one wanting to be slitheryn

MoleSmokes · 04/02/2020 04:29

Lest we forget . . . how many of the men who, like your friend, chunter on about this mysterious "gender identity thingie" that they can't quite explain are just spouting the official line?

When they say, "I just feel like a woman" it is natural to think, "That must mean someone like me".

How could that be? Are they mind readers?? Where do they get these ideas of what it might "feel like" to be a woman?? Maybe close observation and study of women performing "femininity" in the Woman Zoo?
mirandayardley.com/en/pornography-and-autogynephilia-in-the-narratives-of-adult-transgender-males/

What sort of "womanhood" might a man who "was staunchly anti-feminist, and also pretty anti-women" feel that he embodies? Maybe a checklist would help?
mirandayardley.com/en/17-signs-i-am-an-autogynephile-and-didnt-know-it/

Your man might be the exception - but such men really, really are the exception in this demographic. That is why you will be told that this phenomenon does not exist - despite numerous researchers documenting it over decades.

If you type the word for this "self-love that must not speak its name" here on Mumsnet, expect those who want everyone to forget about it to report your post and it will very likely be deleted. As mine might be for even alerting you to this possibility.

See this answer "This is something we'd look at on a case by case basis, though we'll definitely delete posts which generalise." :
www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

thirdfiddle · 31/01/2020 22:01

Yep it really is.
Basically they're asking which clan do I feel I should be in? Ignoring the fact that male and female are not in fact clans or political parties, there is no overriding principle of what women are like and what men are like. The only common factor is biology. If you let people identify in and out you render the categorisation meaningless and pointless.

TheShoesa · 31/01/2020 21:53

I was talking about this with ds only this morning (the CPS guidance has brought this topic of conversation back to table whereas he was getting thoroughly fed up of my rants)

Anyway, I was saying that for all the people saying 'I knew I was really a woman/man from an early age because I felt like a woman/man' HOW can they say that? HOW can they possibly say that they feel like anyone other than themselves? I accept that they can feel that they don't fit into the societal stereotypes for their sex, but how can they possibly feel like anyone else?

Also this comment:

So - without ANY actual knowledge of women, he simply assumed that as he was so unhappy & uncomfortable as a man, he just must be a woman.

made me think of that twitter thread where Sally Hines said when asked about how she knew she was a woman, said she didn't feel strongly that she wasn't, so she supposed she must be! (or words to that effect - I wish I'd got screenshots)