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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID

210 replies

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 03:40

Fair Play for Women recently gave a speech at a forwomen.scot event outlining why women need to resist GRA reform:

GRA reform is bad law... demedicalisation of the GRA must be opposed ... It is right and fair that a robust and medical gatekeeping process is in place.

I disagree. IMO there are numerous contradictions in being against ‘self-identification’ of legal sex while handwaving medical oversight of legal ‘sex change’ as a reasonable and normal state of affairs.

Instead of opposing the proposed amendments to the GRA, feminists should be loudly AGREEING with trans activists and politicians when they argue that the current GRA is not fit for purpose. We should seize the opportunity to argue that for everyone’s sake, the GRA should be repealed, because it is a bad law that is working for nobody.

I think feminists have focused on self ID because it looks obviously bonkers to the general public, so they think this issue has the most chance of gaining traction. But this undermines the clarity and power of the feminist argument in several ways:

Firstly, it makes no sense to argue that some men can become women but others can’t. So already, the ‘anti self-ID’ stance looks (and indeed is) incoherent.

Secondly, the existing GRA is already predicated on self-ID: no surgery or hormones are required to change legal sex – the only caveat is that two doctors need to agree with the applicant’s self-declaration, and a panel needs to sign off on it.

So the trans activists are right when they say that getting rid of these steps is a mere administrative change. The notion that the current system has ‘checks and balances’ but the proposed changes will ‘open the floodgates’ is misleading. The floodgates are already open. The existing GRA is no barrier to the societal change that is underway – on the contrary, it has facilitated it – nor are predatory men prevented from becoming legally ‘women’ under the current system.

Thirdly, advocating that legal sex status should be regulated by the same gender doctors who have shown themselves to be operating outside of all normal ethical and scientific standards is illogical and undermines our efforts to stop what is happening to children and young people under the auspices of ‘gender medicine’.

Lastly, no party in a conflict should start negotiations by asking for the smallest possible bit of territory that they think they can get – which is what ‘no to self-ID’ is. Not only does this sell women and girls short, it is an especially unwise strategy given the scorched earth policy of our opponents. While women are trying to look nice and reasonable by pleading for a ‘balancing of rights’, trans activists never give an inch: not on prisons, not on sports, or in any of the areas where allowing ‘gender identity’ to overwrite sex causes the greatest problems. On the contrary, trans activists prosecute their most outrageous demands the hardest, because they understand that if they were to concede that sex is relevant in ANY area, it would undermine the logic of their entire project.

Thus, the only workable and coherent position for feminists to take is that the GRA should be repealed and the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ ended.

When Jess Phillips says the current GRA isn't working for trans-identified people, she's right - her error is in thinking that making it easier to get a GRC will solve their distress. It won’t; people who identify as trans are still going to come up against the immutable reality of sex, in all sorts of contexts (not just those covered by the Equality Act).

Society can NEVER bend itself far enough to accommodate the lie that was enshrined in the GRA, because sex, and its fundamental relevance to all aspects of life, can never be abolished. Trans activists must keep endlessly litigating and censoring, and while this might be good for Stonewall's bottom line, it's not good for the mental health of the people the GRA was supposed to help, and it's disastrous for the rest of us.

It's time that politicians were forced to acknowledge that the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ has created insoluble difficulties for society in the areas of women’s rights, child protection and free speech, and these problems are only increasing in number and magnitude. Feminists should campaign to repeal the original bad law, and to replace it with new legislation that recognises the social significance of the sexed body while protecting all people from discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation.

‘No to self ID’ is a losing strategy for feminists in the long term, even if it succeeds in getting GRA reform shelved in the short term. ‘Yes to keeping the red tape around changing one’s legal sex’ isn’t a compelling or coherent position from which to resist gender identity ideology.

'Repeal the GRA’ is the only logically defensible position for feminists to take – and IMO it should be our foundational and first demand, rather than something we have already conceded as an impossibility. It is the only position capable of resolving the problems created by the original legislation, and the only one that has a real chance of shifting the broader cultural narrative in favour of women, children and reality.

OP posts:
Goosefoot · 31/01/2020 12:58

It's bad legislation being used in a way that is totally separate from what it was intended for. It comes out of an approach that is looking mainly to plaster over other problems rather than address them directly.

That being said, I do think it could be difficult to change the momentum and narrative in the public. Not impossible but it would require some savvy and careful work. And it could easily be undermined by loose cannons.

I do think that at the moment, there is a lot of acceptance of the idea of these kinds of legal fictions, particularly around registering births and same sex couples. I think to be consistent that would also have to be looked at the same way and that could create a lot of bad press unless handled very carefully.

Barracker · 31/01/2020 12:38

It would not be feasible for those 'tens of thousands' you predict to be approved. The GR panel simply would not process that volume.

I don't think there would be a rush on that scale anyway. Despite the enormous protests and lobbying to 'make it easier' the curious fact remains that not many people currently apply. The cost is lower than the cost of passport applications for a couple of people. There's no great lobby protesting passport costs.
The GRC approval rate is above 90%.
If you want it, you get it. Hardly anyone is refused.
Begs the question; if it's not that expensive, if you can already get approved without surgery/hormones etc, if being a sex offender is no barrier, if there are really no practical barriers to getting one, the approval rate is very high, and IF the demand is SO high, as is claimed, why are only a handful of people bothering to apply each year?

Does not compute.

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 12:34

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ThePurported · 31/01/2020 12:28

That's a fair point crsacre, but it's a bad law and getting rid of it is better in the long term. The whole premise of the GRA is unhelpful, as it turns 'transitioning' into a goal-oriented - yet utterly meaningless - process and reinforces the false idea that people can change sex.

Aesopfable · 31/01/2020 12:27

Random 'registered' appeared in there for some reason

Aesopfable · 31/01/2020 12:26

Tran's people do NOT have registered right to choose which changing rooms etc to use. Unless they have a GRC the EA states they must not be discriminated against compared to those of the same sex (so for transwomen, men). They do not have the right to enter spaces or services set aside for those of the opposite sex.

snowblight I suggest you read the actual law nor Stonewall''s distortion.

Mockers2020Vision · 31/01/2020 12:25

And it's inconceivable that one could remove GRC from people who had already obtained it legally.

It's not a question of ripping a piece of paper from someone's hand. It would be gender reassignment itself that would no longer be recognised by the law.

snowblight · 31/01/2020 12:21

It exists to make it harder for other people to assert their own rights, which would normally, and lawfully, include the exclusion of the holder.

Totally inaccurate nonsense. Trans people already have the right to use the toilets, changing rooms they want to. A GRC doesn't change that. In fact the Equality Act makes it clear that in certain circumstances where a trans person should be excluded, holding a GRC makes no difference.

crsacre · 31/01/2020 12:16

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Barracker · 31/01/2020 12:11

You don't need a GRC to do that anyway.

You don't need a certificate to burgle my house, but if I catch you and eject you the law will support me, not you, and you may discover you have broken certain laws with your chosen actions.

You don't need a certificate to drive without a seatbelt, but if you are caught, you may be prosecuted.

The certificate is merely a veiled threat.
It exists to make it harder for other people to assert their own rights, which would normally, and lawfully, include the exclusion of the holder. It is a piece of paper designed to have a chilling effect upon others asserting their rights.
The rights can still be asserted though. The more this happens, the less powerful the certificate becomes.

Aesopfable · 31/01/2020 12:10

Where a transperson enters a single sex space of the opposite sex (so transwomen entering female spaces) they are not entering that space they are destroying it. A space ceases to be single sex female space the moment a transwoman enters it.

NeurotrashWarrior · 31/01/2020 12:09

In reply to op.

NeurotrashWarrior · 31/01/2020 12:09

I agree and I've also heard a few trans people who are very pro the definition of trans and women being separate also saying this.

Thelnebriati · 31/01/2020 12:02

If the end result of legislation is that it can be misused to have a negative effect on the basic human rights of another group, it is bad legislation.

We have to look at this in the context of whats happening now, and whats happening now is a move away from recognising women as humans with autonomy and human rights, and away from safeguarding.

Its a shame that this legislation has not been successful. It was intended to help one small group and was not intended to have a negative outcome for anyone else. But safeguarding must come first.

snowblight · 31/01/2020 12:00

Those with GRCs could keep them but they would not be legally recognised for the purposes of accessing single sex spaces of the opposite sex.

You don't need a GRC to do that anyway.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 11:56

DonkeySkin appreciate where you're coming from but I feel we are so far from any conversation re the GRA being repealed. We've just had the consultation on amendments to the Act and it may be that self ID is passed. I cannot see what could cause such a huge mental shift from where we are now to the entire Act being repealed.

If what you say is true and many transgender people would actively support repealing the GRA (which in turn would lead to the support of LGBT organisations) then yes it could be realistic. All the LGBT organisations I know of (bar the LGB alliance) support self ID.

NonnyMouse1337 good question and as long as there is a service that does cater for trans people then there should be no reason for them not to voluntarily self exclude. Strengthening the EA exemptions could mean a hefty fine for not respecting these rules.

Barracker · 31/01/2020 11:55

In order to 'recognise' male people 'as female', it is necessary to 'unrecognise' female people as a sex.

I'd say unrecognising the sex of 33million female people is a significant harm.
I'd say it's a scale of harm several magnitudes bigger than the 'harm' of recognising the ACTUAL sex of the male people was in the first place.

You can either recognise my sex as being the opposite from male people - the truth, as it happens
Or
You can contrive to 'recognise' that, apparently, I am indistinguishable from male people and should be punished for demanding MY sex be properly recognised and distinguished.

Either everyone's sex is recognised, so that female people can be measured against make people, demand recognition and equality with them on accurate, fair terms.
Or sex is a forbidden characteristic, and those wishing to have reality recognised are punished.

Actual females will continue to exist and constitute the biologically female half of humanity. The question is whether it is inhumane to pretend there is no importance to this biological existence of half of humanity.

Currently, whether people realise it or not, it is practically impossible for this reality to be recognised in law and distinguished as it should be from the male half of humanity.

The right to have my sex fairly recognised includes the right to truthfully say "I'm the opposite sex to you" without punishment or sanction.

The GENDER recognition act is a SEX UN-RECOGNITION act.

For EVERYONE.

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/01/2020 11:41

SapphosRock how would one ascertain the 'transsexual status' of a person who turned up at a single sex service? Is the service provider relying on the person to openly declare their transsexual status or are they relying on all trans people to voluntarily self-exclude from single sex services?

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 11:40

Sorry but I think it's completely unrealistic. Not a single politician is behind repealing the GRA, not even the rightest of the right wing ones have suggested it.

That's why it's up to us to shift the conversation. As Barracker noted, once the demand is in the public sphere, more people will consider it. Politicians might even be asked 'Should the GRA be repealed?' in interviews, instead of the inane and recursive non-question they currently get: 'Do you think trans women are women?' which just leads to all of them (even the Tories) fake-smiling and saying 'Of course' while shifting uncomfortably in their seats.

For the argument to be at all persuasive, there would need to be concrete examples of what actual harm has occurred in the last 16 years to justify repealing the GRA.

Off the top of my head: women and girls losing the right to privacy in public places such as change rooms; women in prison being forced to live alongside men, some of them extremely dangerous; people losing their jobs for stating that sex is real; a chilling climate in academia that forbids academics or students from freely discussing ideas or policy related to sex and gender; the police harassing and arresting people for tweeting about trans issues; sporting clubs eliminating female-only competitions; organisations and schools abandoning child safeguarding principles at the behest of trans activists; children being subjected to sterilising and mutilating medical procedures; the loss of accurate crime statistics.

These are all harms that have already happened as a direct result of the government enshrining the lie of 'sex change' in law. It's not about the number of GRCs themselves (Karen White didn't need one to transfer to a female prison), but the social and cultural shift that the law has facilitated.

It's inarguable that these extremely far-reaching harms outweigh 'the positives for transgender people', but also, as others have said: what positives for transgender people? Trans activists themselves say that the law THEY lobbied for is 'humiliating and intrusive' to trans-identified people and doesn't work for them.

Also, it seems evident that the existence of the GRA has worsened, not helped, the mental health of people who identify as trans. The law is telling them that they are officially the opposite sex, and then society is telling them in numerous ways, large and small, that actually, that's not true. So they have to keep litigating and protesting, finding 'transphobia' wherever sex is acknowledged as real. Meanwhile, people push back. Not just feminists, but anyone who wants to speak freely about what their own senses tell them is true.

The Freddy McConnell case is exemplary of the never-ending battle against reality that 'sex change' instantiates: the court had to weigh the right of FM's child to not have a lie recorded on his birth certificate against FM's argument that since FM's legal sex is male, the child has no biological mother. From the judgement:

It is now medically and legally possible for an individual, whose gender is recognised in law as male, to become pregnant and give birth to their child. Whilst that person’s gender is ‘male’, their parental status, which derives from their biological role in giving birth, is that of ‘mother’.”

How confusing is this? It's embarrassing that politicians have created such an absurd situation by reifying 'gender identity'. The court resisted the anti-reality argument this time, but where does it end? Never. The contradictions inherent in attempting to extinguish sex as a social category never end, and it's not positive for anybody, trans-identified people included.

OP posts:
SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 11:27

NonnyMouse1337 The EA exemptions mean it is legal to refuse a trans women at a female only service if there is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Service providers should feel able to apply these exemptions, especially in the case of vulnerable females.

Lots of sexual assault victims find the presence of males triggering and this should certainly be a legitimate reason to apply EA exemptions for women only services.

I believe the current wording in the EA is 'transsexual status' so even a female birth certificate would not mean anything and the exemptions could be applied.

ThePurported · 31/01/2020 11:27

It should absolutely be repealed, and shouldn't have been passed in the first place. It's a kind of law that has no place in a progressive country.

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/01/2020 11:26

SapphosRock people who are not trans are not allowed to change the sex marker on their birth certificate. The only purpose a GRC serves is to be able to do this. This is a privilege only trans people have. It's not a right.

Gay marriage enabled people in same sex relationships to have access to the benefits that were already available to those in opposite sex marriages.

They are not comparable.

Mockers2020Vision · 31/01/2020 11:24

There is no such thing as "Gay Marriage."

It is exactly the same marriage as any other marriage between any two people.

Aesopfable · 31/01/2020 11:24

Like an execution warrant is just a piece of paper?

Aesopfable · 31/01/2020 11:23

Just a piece of paper?