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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID

210 replies

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 03:40

Fair Play for Women recently gave a speech at a forwomen.scot event outlining why women need to resist GRA reform:

GRA reform is bad law... demedicalisation of the GRA must be opposed ... It is right and fair that a robust and medical gatekeeping process is in place.

I disagree. IMO there are numerous contradictions in being against ‘self-identification’ of legal sex while handwaving medical oversight of legal ‘sex change’ as a reasonable and normal state of affairs.

Instead of opposing the proposed amendments to the GRA, feminists should be loudly AGREEING with trans activists and politicians when they argue that the current GRA is not fit for purpose. We should seize the opportunity to argue that for everyone’s sake, the GRA should be repealed, because it is a bad law that is working for nobody.

I think feminists have focused on self ID because it looks obviously bonkers to the general public, so they think this issue has the most chance of gaining traction. But this undermines the clarity and power of the feminist argument in several ways:

Firstly, it makes no sense to argue that some men can become women but others can’t. So already, the ‘anti self-ID’ stance looks (and indeed is) incoherent.

Secondly, the existing GRA is already predicated on self-ID: no surgery or hormones are required to change legal sex – the only caveat is that two doctors need to agree with the applicant’s self-declaration, and a panel needs to sign off on it.

So the trans activists are right when they say that getting rid of these steps is a mere administrative change. The notion that the current system has ‘checks and balances’ but the proposed changes will ‘open the floodgates’ is misleading. The floodgates are already open. The existing GRA is no barrier to the societal change that is underway – on the contrary, it has facilitated it – nor are predatory men prevented from becoming legally ‘women’ under the current system.

Thirdly, advocating that legal sex status should be regulated by the same gender doctors who have shown themselves to be operating outside of all normal ethical and scientific standards is illogical and undermines our efforts to stop what is happening to children and young people under the auspices of ‘gender medicine’.

Lastly, no party in a conflict should start negotiations by asking for the smallest possible bit of territory that they think they can get – which is what ‘no to self-ID’ is. Not only does this sell women and girls short, it is an especially unwise strategy given the scorched earth policy of our opponents. While women are trying to look nice and reasonable by pleading for a ‘balancing of rights’, trans activists never give an inch: not on prisons, not on sports, or in any of the areas where allowing ‘gender identity’ to overwrite sex causes the greatest problems. On the contrary, trans activists prosecute their most outrageous demands the hardest, because they understand that if they were to concede that sex is relevant in ANY area, it would undermine the logic of their entire project.

Thus, the only workable and coherent position for feminists to take is that the GRA should be repealed and the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ ended.

When Jess Phillips says the current GRA isn't working for trans-identified people, she's right - her error is in thinking that making it easier to get a GRC will solve their distress. It won’t; people who identify as trans are still going to come up against the immutable reality of sex, in all sorts of contexts (not just those covered by the Equality Act).

Society can NEVER bend itself far enough to accommodate the lie that was enshrined in the GRA, because sex, and its fundamental relevance to all aspects of life, can never be abolished. Trans activists must keep endlessly litigating and censoring, and while this might be good for Stonewall's bottom line, it's not good for the mental health of the people the GRA was supposed to help, and it's disastrous for the rest of us.

It's time that politicians were forced to acknowledge that the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ has created insoluble difficulties for society in the areas of women’s rights, child protection and free speech, and these problems are only increasing in number and magnitude. Feminists should campaign to repeal the original bad law, and to replace it with new legislation that recognises the social significance of the sexed body while protecting all people from discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation.

‘No to self ID’ is a losing strategy for feminists in the long term, even if it succeeds in getting GRA reform shelved in the short term. ‘Yes to keeping the red tape around changing one’s legal sex’ isn’t a compelling or coherent position from which to resist gender identity ideology.

'Repeal the GRA’ is the only logically defensible position for feminists to take – and IMO it should be our foundational and first demand, rather than something we have already conceded as an impossibility. It is the only position capable of resolving the problems created by the original legislation, and the only one that has a real chance of shifting the broader cultural narrative in favour of women, children and reality.

OP posts:
SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 18:02

Datun AGP individuals seeking a GRC for validation is an uncomfortable thought I agree, but other people's thoughts are not something that can be policed.

Also part of me is inclined to think 'so what?' if an AGP individual is in love with the idea of feeling like a woman. As long as it's a personal feeling and not affecting other women then it's harmless.

As long as these people continue to be separated by law from adult human females when it matters (EA exemptions) then they can crack on.

Datun · 31/01/2020 17:44

I don't think it's the clothes per se, as being turned on by the thought of oneself as a woman, which consequently involves the clothes.

Hence the term autogynephilia. Being in love/lust with yourself as a woman.

Anne Lawrence, an AGP, actually called their book becoming what we love.

Also, as Miranda Yardley, another transwoman says, where have all the cross dressers gone? Following it up with they've become transwomen. Many of whom are desperate for a GRC, as the ultimate validation.

Another reason why the GRA should be scrapped. Many men seeking a GRC will want it to endorse their fetish. That cannot be right, in anyone's book.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not saying AGP applies to all transwoman.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 17:31

It's an interesting point Datun, but I thought the very nature of a AGP fetish was being turned on by wearing women's clothes. That seems very different and distinct from actually wanting to be a woman.

Many women are turned on by watching lesbian porn, doesn't mean they actually want to be lesbians.

Datun · 31/01/2020 17:24

Also, who says they wear women's clothing full time? A lot of them don't. Doesn't stop them getting a GRC.

Datun · 31/01/2020 17:21

But I'm still interested in this.

but no GR panel is going to approve an applicant with a fetish.

How do they tell?

Datun · 31/01/2020 17:20

Perhaps you haven't read the transwidows threads?

Living full-time in female clothing, absolutely can be the result of AGP.

AGPs are plastered from one end of the Internet to the other, all thoroughly enjoying their anatomy.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 17:14

If a fetish has progressed to officially changing ones name and going to work under a new identity as a woman for two years then it's a bit more than a fetish isn't it? That would suggest the individual is genuinely dysphoric.

Datun · 31/01/2020 17:10

I see fetishes and gender dysphoria as two very separate things. They may come under the same 'trans' umbrella but no GR panel is going to approve an applicant with a fetish.

You're kidding, right?

How do you think they tell the difference?

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 17:09

sapphos do you think it's right to officially recognise a fetish, by being able to have a certificate endorsing it?

I see fetishes and gender dysphoria as two very separate things. They may come under the same 'trans' umbrella but no GR panel is going to approve an applicant with a fetish.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 17:06

Ask anyone in the Catholic Church or most of COE for that matter. They will tell you a marriage is between a man and a woman and any deviation from this is a false narrative.

If an adult human male feels they cannot live their authentic life without presenting to the world as a woman then that is fine... as long the law recognises they are not actually female. Which it does.

The EA exemptions recognise that transsexual women are not in fact female by highlighting the instances where it is lawful to treat trans women differently.

People should not be afraid of the law and apply these exemptions, particularly when it comes to vulnerable women and women's sport.

Datun · 31/01/2020 16:58

The other thing is, of course, that there is a certain narrative that says the reason why there were only 5000 certificates issued, is because gender dysphoria amongst men is very rare. And consequently the reason why there are now so many transwomen, is because of the absorption of transvestism under the umbrella, by stonewall.

sapphos do you think it's right to officially recognise a fetish, by being able to have a certificate endorsing it?

Datun · 31/01/2020 16:47

None of those things is fake. They do have a marriage, they are parenting. Even if you accept they're not biological parents, they are doing the parenting. And they're not trying to say they are the biological parents.

Saying an adult human male is also an adult human female is saying something that is not true, can never be true, and there is no way of interpreting it as having any truth, at all.

jellyfrizz · 31/01/2020 16:47

All of these are 'fake narratives' and mean a lot of the people they belong to.

Why is a marriage certificate for a gay couple a 'fake narrative'?

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 16:22

Ultimately what good does having a GRC do a transexual person? I think it’s cruel to set up a fake narrative for them.

Ultimately what good does having a marriage certificate do to a gay couple?

Ultimately what good does it do to have adoptive parents listed on a birth certificate rather than biological parents?

Ultimately what good does it do to have the partner of a lesbian mother listed as 'parent' on a birth certificate?

All of these are 'fake narratives' and mean a lot of the people they belong to.

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 16:11

I’ve emailed my MP to request a meeting regarding this, she’s met me before and has concerns herself. Ultimately what good does having a GRC do a transexual person? I think it’s cruel to set up a fake narrative for them.

BlindYeoSees · 31/01/2020 16:10

Haven't seen your name for a while, DonkeySkin! I always liked your posts. I totally agree with you.

jellyfrizz · 31/01/2020 16:09

If trans-identified people want to campaign for ‘transwoman’ and ‘transman’ as sex categories (or as a kind of asterisk or add-on to their identity documents?), let them..

Wouldn't the point be that they would be gender rather than sex categories? Which would respect people's identities but decouple sex and gender in law.

Barracker · 31/01/2020 16:06

Oh, jolly good try, fieldofgreycorn.

Unfortunately for you, I explicitly referenced a legally sanctioned preposterous lie.
A lie.
I'm sure you'd like to contort my condemnation of the evolution of a legal LIE into some kind of dreadful prejudice against PEOPLE, but unfortunately for you people can read and comprehend perfectly well what I wrote.

It says more about you, and your bad faith that you've deliberately misreprentated what was said.

Unless of course, your position is that noone should condemn preposterous lies if they serve your own agenda?

Mockers2020Vision · 31/01/2020 16:06

The provisions of Section 28 never resulted in a single investigation. It was there to intimidate and it suceeded mightily.

Datun · 31/01/2020 16:04

It took 15 years of campaigning to change the law about rape within marriage.

Fifteen years of government committees, MPs talking, being lobbied, the public talking, minutes of meetings being written, letters exchanged, and endless, endless discussions between people - all of whom absolutely agreed that rape should be legal.

Aesopfable · 31/01/2020 16:04

You have been given examples sapphos but the most basic and concrete one is it undermines the meaning of 'woman' and 'sex' and therefore undermines everything that relies on these categories: all the laws that protect women and help us overcome sexism, and all separate health needs.

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 16:03

On the suggestion of a third (or fourth) sex category for trans-identified individuals, like Aesop, I can’t see how this would work.

Some countries do have formal recognition of ‘third gender’ males, but this is part of a long-standing cultural tradition – one that doesn’t exist in the West. Furthermore, ‘third genderism’ (as distinct from the Western phenomenon of transgenderism) is rooted in strict sex roles and sanctions against homosexuality; it’s a mechanism for gay males to exist peacefully in societies that would otherwise reject them. I’m not sure why we’d want to import this tradition.

If trans-identified people want to campaign for ‘transwoman’ and ‘transman’ as sex categories (or as a kind of asterisk or add-on to their identity documents?), let them, but I don’t think feminists would get very far suggesting it – trans activists would say we are ‘othering’ and ‘dehumanising’ them by pushing trans-identified people into a legal and ontological cul-de-sac, and they wouldn’t be entirely wrong, and that’s before we get to debates about what sort of sex-based rights these other ‘sexes’ should have.

I don’t think feminists should waste our time arguing for the creation of novel sex categories (aside from the fact that it contradicts our position that sex is material). Why can’t we just advocate for laws that protect against discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation?

OP posts:
Datun · 31/01/2020 16:01

The law is exactly the same law as it was in 2004.

So what?

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 15:57

As with Section 28, whether the GRA is considered a 'bad law' is very subjective.

Concrete examples of how the application of the law is directly causing harm would be needed if any repeal argument is to be taken seriously.

Ikeasucks · 31/01/2020 15:45

Totally agree OP, the GRA already operates on self id and creates a system of confusion, intimidation and a total conflict of rights between transfolk and female folk. I want to see this ridiculous, confusing, unworkable Act repealed

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