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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID

210 replies

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 03:40

Fair Play for Women recently gave a speech at a forwomen.scot event outlining why women need to resist GRA reform:

GRA reform is bad law... demedicalisation of the GRA must be opposed ... It is right and fair that a robust and medical gatekeeping process is in place.

I disagree. IMO there are numerous contradictions in being against ‘self-identification’ of legal sex while handwaving medical oversight of legal ‘sex change’ as a reasonable and normal state of affairs.

Instead of opposing the proposed amendments to the GRA, feminists should be loudly AGREEING with trans activists and politicians when they argue that the current GRA is not fit for purpose. We should seize the opportunity to argue that for everyone’s sake, the GRA should be repealed, because it is a bad law that is working for nobody.

I think feminists have focused on self ID because it looks obviously bonkers to the general public, so they think this issue has the most chance of gaining traction. But this undermines the clarity and power of the feminist argument in several ways:

Firstly, it makes no sense to argue that some men can become women but others can’t. So already, the ‘anti self-ID’ stance looks (and indeed is) incoherent.

Secondly, the existing GRA is already predicated on self-ID: no surgery or hormones are required to change legal sex – the only caveat is that two doctors need to agree with the applicant’s self-declaration, and a panel needs to sign off on it.

So the trans activists are right when they say that getting rid of these steps is a mere administrative change. The notion that the current system has ‘checks and balances’ but the proposed changes will ‘open the floodgates’ is misleading. The floodgates are already open. The existing GRA is no barrier to the societal change that is underway – on the contrary, it has facilitated it – nor are predatory men prevented from becoming legally ‘women’ under the current system.

Thirdly, advocating that legal sex status should be regulated by the same gender doctors who have shown themselves to be operating outside of all normal ethical and scientific standards is illogical and undermines our efforts to stop what is happening to children and young people under the auspices of ‘gender medicine’.

Lastly, no party in a conflict should start negotiations by asking for the smallest possible bit of territory that they think they can get – which is what ‘no to self-ID’ is. Not only does this sell women and girls short, it is an especially unwise strategy given the scorched earth policy of our opponents. While women are trying to look nice and reasonable by pleading for a ‘balancing of rights’, trans activists never give an inch: not on prisons, not on sports, or in any of the areas where allowing ‘gender identity’ to overwrite sex causes the greatest problems. On the contrary, trans activists prosecute their most outrageous demands the hardest, because they understand that if they were to concede that sex is relevant in ANY area, it would undermine the logic of their entire project.

Thus, the only workable and coherent position for feminists to take is that the GRA should be repealed and the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ ended.

When Jess Phillips says the current GRA isn't working for trans-identified people, she's right - her error is in thinking that making it easier to get a GRC will solve their distress. It won’t; people who identify as trans are still going to come up against the immutable reality of sex, in all sorts of contexts (not just those covered by the Equality Act).

Society can NEVER bend itself far enough to accommodate the lie that was enshrined in the GRA, because sex, and its fundamental relevance to all aspects of life, can never be abolished. Trans activists must keep endlessly litigating and censoring, and while this might be good for Stonewall's bottom line, it's not good for the mental health of the people the GRA was supposed to help, and it's disastrous for the rest of us.

It's time that politicians were forced to acknowledge that the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ has created insoluble difficulties for society in the areas of women’s rights, child protection and free speech, and these problems are only increasing in number and magnitude. Feminists should campaign to repeal the original bad law, and to replace it with new legislation that recognises the social significance of the sexed body while protecting all people from discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation.

‘No to self ID’ is a losing strategy for feminists in the long term, even if it succeeds in getting GRA reform shelved in the short term. ‘Yes to keeping the red tape around changing one’s legal sex’ isn’t a compelling or coherent position from which to resist gender identity ideology.

'Repeal the GRA’ is the only logically defensible position for feminists to take – and IMO it should be our foundational and first demand, rather than something we have already conceded as an impossibility. It is the only position capable of resolving the problems created by the original legislation, and the only one that has a real chance of shifting the broader cultural narrative in favour of women, children and reality.

OP posts:
SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 21:14

If you believe that a women's refuge, for example, could exclude a transwoman who has a GRC making them legally recognised as female (with female on their birth certificate), can you explain exactly how, and on what grounds, they could exclude them?

A women's refuge is a good example as protecting vulnerable women from harm is a higher priority than validating a trans woman's identity - therefore a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

In these circumstances it would be lawful for the women's refuge to exclude trans women. See the bit that says:

Circumstances when being treated differently due to gender reassignment is lawful

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

OldCrone · 31/01/2020 21:08

The EA exemptions recognise that transsexual women are not in fact female by highlighting the instances where it is lawful to treat trans women differently.

People should not be afraid of the law and apply these exemptions, particularly when it comes to vulnerable women and women's sport.

SapphosRock The law says that the exemptions can be applied, but in practice this is not possible for someone who has a GRC and therefore has a new birth certificate stating that they are the opposite sex to that which they were born.

If you believe that a women's refuge, for example, could exclude a transwoman who has a GRC making them legally recognised as female (with female on their birth certificate), can you explain exactly how, and on what grounds, they could exclude them?

If a man can become legally female, how can single-sex exemptions work? How do you distinguish between a woman and a transwoman with a GRC?

The GRA is incompatible with single-sex exemptions under the EA.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 21:08

Another reason for not campaigning to repeal the GRA is it feeds right into the accusations from TRAs.

We are constantly hearing that trans rights are under attack, that GC feminists are trying to deny the existence of trans people.

Repealing the GRA is doing exactly that - denying trans people their existing right to exist as the opposite gender. They will become the oppressed victims.

As a PP pointed out it would also attract the loose cannons who are at the extreme far right of GC feminism, alienating the vast majority of moderate feminists.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 31/01/2020 20:50

I'm happy to see DonkeySkin back! On the third gender option idea, the irony is that the reason it won't work in the UK is that because levels of sexism are lower and gender roles less strict than in the societies in which that's evolved we have both male and female people who want to be seen as the opposite sex, whereas most societies with a third gender option offer it only for males, because the level of flexibility offered to females unhappy with their societal role is "none". A third gender that encompasses both male and female people isn't going to make sense to anyone, which does indeed underline how illogical the whole thing is in the first place, but also means it would be impossible to deploy.

I think the GRA should have been repealed as soon as marriage was opened up to allow anyone who wants to get married to do so. As is it functions as a bait and switch (which may well have been the intention of some of the people behind it, but certainly wasn't what Parliament agreed to) and creates conflicts with other people's rights, so it needs to go.

Thelnebriati · 31/01/2020 20:49

SapphosRock Fri 31-Jan-20 20:09:21

happydappy2 as I mentioned earlier in the thread the GRC is just a piece of paper. Nobody asks to see it in reality.

Are you ignorant of the law, or being disingenuous? Its usually illegal to ask to see a GRC.
The GRC itself may be 'just a piece of paper' but it enables a person to change the sex recorded on their birth certificate; and that is the piece of paper that most organisations ask to see.

Goosefoot · 31/01/2020 20:41

And they're not trying to say they are the biological parents.

There are certainly people who want to be able to have same sex parents both on the birth certificate as biological parents, and see arguments against that as being bioessentialist or homophobic. So there are parallels there in how they conceptualise that. And FWIW, the central conservative argument about SSM has always been that there is a relevant physiological difference between same and opposite sex couples, and the law saying there isn't doesn't change that. The disagreement is really over the purpose of marriage in society, which they would say is related to sexual reproduction and not about validating people's feelings.

But when any of these are reduced to being discussed as rights questions, important elements are often not brought out, it really narrows the focus.

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 20:36

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Datun · 31/01/2020 20:30

sapphos, do you actually read what people write? How they respond to your posts? Because you repeat things that have already been addressed.

Datun · 31/01/2020 20:29

A lie is an inanimate noun isn’t it. It can’t litterally escape, mutate, breed. Not on its own. Perhaps I was struck by the vividness of your prose.

No, not literally, field 🤣

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 20:15

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SisterWendyBuckett · 31/01/2020 20:14

Birth certificates are a copy of a record of a birth. I take great issue with re-writing history, not just the person granted a GRC, but the mother's history is re-written too.

Exactly.

I conceived and gave birth to a daughter. This is my lived history, my lived experience, my truth. My body.

It's difficult enough having to deal with this from your own child, without the state reinforcing an absolute lie.

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 20:14

happydappy2 and if the EA exemptions are strengthened and correctly applied then it becomes effectively meaningless. That's what I am hoping for.

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 20:11

Just a piece of paper-but its not is it-its something XY adults can claim legal status of being a woman with

SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 20:09

happydappy2 as I mentioned earlier in the thread the GRC is just a piece of paper. Nobody asks to see it in reality. But what it means to that trans individual is comparable to an adoptive or non birth parent being on their child's birth certificate. An affirmative legal fiction.

Men who fetishise women, in a subjugation/degradation fetish, is not harmless. It's perpetuating the concept that women's humiliation is a turn on.

I can see how an AGP person fetishising themselves as a woman is ... distasteful for some people. But I believe people's private fantasies are harmless if they don't directly affect anyone else. It's also impossible to control private fantasies - removing the GRC won't make these fantasies magically disappear.

I appreciate many trans widows have been affected by the their partners coming out later in life. I believe if those trans women had felt able to be themselves and get a GRC earlier in life then their 'fetish' wouldn't feel so deviant. More importantly they would not have entered into heterosexual marriages in the first place and misled their partners.

If an AGP's thoughts lead to actions that actually negatively affect women then of course that is serious. As I said at the start of the thread, there would need to be some very concrete examples of this happening frequently to form a persuasive argument to repeal the GRA.

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 19:51

Field how does a GRC benefit an adult XY person, other than giving them access to spaces set aside for women (& by default children)?

Fieldofgreycorn · 31/01/2020 19:48

Unless of course, your position is that noone should condemn preposterous lies if they serve your own agenda?

Condemn what you like. I was trying to ascertain what it was that had escaped, mutated, bred, multiplied exponentially

A lie is an inanimate noun isn’t it. It can’t litterally escape, mutate, breed. Not on its own. Perhaps I was struck by the vividness of your prose.

people can read and comprehend perfectly well what I wrote.

Yes.

Fieldofgreycorn · 31/01/2020 19:35

So what?

So if the law is the same law or ‘lie’ as it was in 2004, that people can legally change sex, what is it that has escaped, mutated, bred, multiplied?

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 19:30

Saphos or anyone.....how does a GRC benefit an adult XY person, other than giving them access to spaces set aside for women (& by default children)?

I'm sure someone will be along to tell me soon....

Datun · 31/01/2020 19:00

Also part of me is inclined to think 'so what?' if an AGP individual is in love with the idea of feeling like a woman. As long as it's a personal feeling and not affecting other women then it's harmless.

Eh? Men who fetishise women, in a subjugation/degradation fetish, is not harmless. It's perpetuating the concept that women's humiliation is a turn on.

Other people, men, women and children, who affirm or validate that the person is a woman is an unwitting participant. How can you see that as harmless?

Having a GRC means that the person is legally female. There is literally no way to exclude them as the law stands, despite what is says. What are you supposed to do?

I'm a woman.

No you're not.

Yes I am, here is my birth certificate.

That can't be right, because you look like a...you've got a...you're obviously a...um

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 18:56

Saphos I'm really struggling to understand how a GRC helps a trans person-other than allowing XY adults to legally enter spaces set aside for women-what am I missing?

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 18:52

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happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 18:46

So, in that case, why not repeal the GRA which is a very bad law? No one can give an example of how it benefits anyone? (Now same sex marriage is legal.)

Cascade220 · 31/01/2020 18:46

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SapphosRock · 31/01/2020 18:40

happydappy2 I completely agree. Institutions need to understand them and apply them properly. This isn't happening enough.

happydappy2 · 31/01/2020 18:22

Saphos you keep coming back to the point that EA exemptions protect women under the law, but they DON'T because institutions are not enacting them properly, because of pressure from TRAs. That is why we have the safeguarding catastrophe of XY adults being able to share accommodation with teenage girls in Girl Guides overnight trips-XY adults accessing womens changing rooms in Centre Parcs-XY adults competing in womens sports & XY adults being locked up in womens prisons to name but a few problems. The existence of a GRC creates more problems than it solves.

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