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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID

210 replies

DonkeySkin · 31/01/2020 03:40

Fair Play for Women recently gave a speech at a forwomen.scot event outlining why women need to resist GRA reform:

GRA reform is bad law... demedicalisation of the GRA must be opposed ... It is right and fair that a robust and medical gatekeeping process is in place.

I disagree. IMO there are numerous contradictions in being against ‘self-identification’ of legal sex while handwaving medical oversight of legal ‘sex change’ as a reasonable and normal state of affairs.

Instead of opposing the proposed amendments to the GRA, feminists should be loudly AGREEING with trans activists and politicians when they argue that the current GRA is not fit for purpose. We should seize the opportunity to argue that for everyone’s sake, the GRA should be repealed, because it is a bad law that is working for nobody.

I think feminists have focused on self ID because it looks obviously bonkers to the general public, so they think this issue has the most chance of gaining traction. But this undermines the clarity and power of the feminist argument in several ways:

Firstly, it makes no sense to argue that some men can become women but others can’t. So already, the ‘anti self-ID’ stance looks (and indeed is) incoherent.

Secondly, the existing GRA is already predicated on self-ID: no surgery or hormones are required to change legal sex – the only caveat is that two doctors need to agree with the applicant’s self-declaration, and a panel needs to sign off on it.

So the trans activists are right when they say that getting rid of these steps is a mere administrative change. The notion that the current system has ‘checks and balances’ but the proposed changes will ‘open the floodgates’ is misleading. The floodgates are already open. The existing GRA is no barrier to the societal change that is underway – on the contrary, it has facilitated it – nor are predatory men prevented from becoming legally ‘women’ under the current system.

Thirdly, advocating that legal sex status should be regulated by the same gender doctors who have shown themselves to be operating outside of all normal ethical and scientific standards is illogical and undermines our efforts to stop what is happening to children and young people under the auspices of ‘gender medicine’.

Lastly, no party in a conflict should start negotiations by asking for the smallest possible bit of territory that they think they can get – which is what ‘no to self-ID’ is. Not only does this sell women and girls short, it is an especially unwise strategy given the scorched earth policy of our opponents. While women are trying to look nice and reasonable by pleading for a ‘balancing of rights’, trans activists never give an inch: not on prisons, not on sports, or in any of the areas where allowing ‘gender identity’ to overwrite sex causes the greatest problems. On the contrary, trans activists prosecute their most outrageous demands the hardest, because they understand that if they were to concede that sex is relevant in ANY area, it would undermine the logic of their entire project.

Thus, the only workable and coherent position for feminists to take is that the GRA should be repealed and the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ ended.

When Jess Phillips says the current GRA isn't working for trans-identified people, she's right - her error is in thinking that making it easier to get a GRC will solve their distress. It won’t; people who identify as trans are still going to come up against the immutable reality of sex, in all sorts of contexts (not just those covered by the Equality Act).

Society can NEVER bend itself far enough to accommodate the lie that was enshrined in the GRA, because sex, and its fundamental relevance to all aspects of life, can never be abolished. Trans activists must keep endlessly litigating and censoring, and while this might be good for Stonewall's bottom line, it's not good for the mental health of the people the GRA was supposed to help, and it's disastrous for the rest of us.

It's time that politicians were forced to acknowledge that the legal fiction of ‘sex change’ has created insoluble difficulties for society in the areas of women’s rights, child protection and free speech, and these problems are only increasing in number and magnitude. Feminists should campaign to repeal the original bad law, and to replace it with new legislation that recognises the social significance of the sexed body while protecting all people from discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation.

‘No to self ID’ is a losing strategy for feminists in the long term, even if it succeeds in getting GRA reform shelved in the short term. ‘Yes to keeping the red tape around changing one’s legal sex’ isn’t a compelling or coherent position from which to resist gender identity ideology.

'Repeal the GRA’ is the only logically defensible position for feminists to take – and IMO it should be our foundational and first demand, rather than something we have already conceded as an impossibility. It is the only position capable of resolving the problems created by the original legislation, and the only one that has a real chance of shifting the broader cultural narrative in favour of women, children and reality.

OP posts:
littlbrowndog · 01/02/2020 12:39

True that mockers

Mockers2020Vision · 01/02/2020 12:37

Most people know about whataboutery, but fewer will be aware of the rhetorical technique of nevermindaboutery, as exemplified above: Raise a point. See it countered. Dismiss the relevance of the point you raised in the first place. And repeat, etc ad inf.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 12:33

Google 'fetish Glastonbury' and you'll be spoilt for choice with pictures too.

I guess kids shouldn't be allowed to go to Glastonbury either...

OldCrone · 01/02/2020 12:26

I did a simple Google search and I'm spoilt for choice.

Thank you for doing that Mockers, so that I didn't have to.

Mockers2020Vision · 01/02/2020 12:23

Erm there's no men walking around in nappies at Pride

I did a simple Google search and I'm spoilt for choice.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 12:23

What would you do if you were me Datun ?

A lesbian mum with two kids who both enjoy going to Pride as they see lots of other kids with lesbian mums. See men holding hands with men and women holding hands with women and know there's lots of other families like us.

Should we stay away from an event that is designed for us just in case my DC spot a man dressed up as a dog?

Surely by staying away it will cause it to be less lesbian and family-friendly?

It's our Pride too.

Datun · 01/02/2020 12:17

Fetishes are the least of my concerns at Pride.

Good to know.

When people are openly displaying an adult sexual kink, which is often linked to paedophilia, at a parade which is advertised as being children friendly, it's good to know that you're more concerned about the straight people who are making a mess.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 12:17

No OldCrone I wouldn't let my children sit with a group of adults they don't know. I don't think you will find any parent that would. It doesn't mean children don't have a place at Pride - there are kids tents especially for them.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 12:11

So how far would you go. Men walking around in nappies? Is that okay to take your children to?

Erm there's no men walking around in nappies at Pride so it's a mute point but say there was... I still don't think my DC would register or care.

Their grandmother has Alzheimer's and has to wear adult incontinence pants so if they thought anything of it (which they wouldn't) they would think the men needed to wear them. Or just think a silly man decided to dress up as a baby.

Fetishes are the least of my concerns at Pride. There are, however, plenty of drunk, rowdy people. Plenty of people on drugs. People vomiting and urinating in the streets. These things make it not so child friendly but then it is an adult festival and it's mainly straight people who come along and use it as an excuse for a big piss up that are responsible for all that.

OldCrone · 01/02/2020 12:02

They aren't going to understand it's a sexual fetish, as far as they're concerned it's just someone in a silly costume.

So you'd be happy to see your children in this picture?

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID
Datun · 01/02/2020 11:53

It's not about your children being scarred. It's about advertising a celebration as being children friendly, when it is populated by people public displaying an adult sexual kink.

Jeez.

So how far would you go. Men walking around in nappies? Is that okay to take your children to?

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 11:37

OldCrone say my DC did see someone dress up in a gimp mask or a 'furry' at Pride. They aren't going to understand it's a sexual fetish, as far as they're concerned it's just someone in a silly costume.

We go to Pride every year and have never seen / noticed these people, but if we did I very much doubt by DC would be scarred by it.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 11:32

Oh Peter Tatchel. That's a whole other thread but I'm in agreement that he's vile. He shouldn't be leading Pride for sure.

Yes I do think the Pride Parades are children friendly. I have participated in the Parade with my own DC and they loved every minute.

OldCrone · 01/02/2020 11:23

Anyone who actually attends Pride knows what it's all about.

Apparently so. It's all about the fetish and it's not for kids.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3619623-pup-play-fans-dance-for-children-at-pride?pg=1#prettyPhoto

Repeal the GRA vs no to self ID
Datun · 01/02/2020 11:17

It was Peter Tatchel, Sapphos - asked to lead Birmingham pride.

so do you think that the pride parades are children friendly?

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 10:45

When a man who thinks there's nothing wrong with having sex with nine-year-olds is asked to actually lead pride, you know they've lost the plot.

What's this all about then? Haven't heard about that. Sounds extremely dodgy.

I don't think a couple of tame photos and a request by an obscure Pride in Wales for participants not to wear kink or fetish really shows Pride is getting overrun by kinks and fetishes.

I've seen people dressed up similarly in my local Waitrose but I don't think Waitrose is getting overrun by kinks and and fetishes either.

Anyone who actually attends Pride knows what it's all about.

Datun · 01/02/2020 10:16

When a man who thinks there's nothing wrong with having sex with nine-year-olds is asked to actually lead pride, you know they've lost the plot.

SapphosRock · 01/02/2020 09:55

Anyone with eyes can see that Pride has morphed into something very different than just celebrating same sex love-its all about kink & fetish & whatever men want.

This absolute rubbish really winds me up! Anyone who has actually been to Pride and has eyes will know it is very much about same sex love.

The only 'kink and fetish' parade participants I know of are the Dykes on bikes and I can't see how they are anything to do with what men want.

OldCrone · 01/02/2020 09:24

This debate exists only in the Anglosphere

The linguistic one, perhaps, but the idea that men can be women if they say they are has spread much further.

happydappy2 · 01/02/2020 09:19

This is why the madness of gender ideology needs full exposure-no more sneaking in laws that affect women, without consulting WITH women. Stonewall have majorly backed the wrong horse here & it"ll be painful for them to acknowledge that-but the safeguarding implications are simply too big to ignore. Anyone with eyes can see that Pride has morphed into something very different than just celebrating same sex love-its all about kink & fetish & whatever men want.

Mockers2020Vision · 01/02/2020 09:00

This debate exists only in the Anglosphere where the distinction between 'sex' (Indo-European, Sexus, to divide) and 'gender' (Indo-European, Gehnus, divergence from the same root) is possible.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 01/02/2020 08:55

And the odd insistence that once a law exists it can never, ever be changed.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 01/02/2020 08:50

The opinions on FWR may be considerably better informed on the detail, but in broad terms, I think you'll find a huge majority of people do not accept TWAW, are not in favour of mixed sex toilets etc and do not want the majority of creeping changes introduced by the GRA The more the issue is openly discussed, I expect the more the general public will realise the implications.

As Nonnymouse notes above, this agenda was hustled in under cover, with a lot of diversion and obfuscation. Hence the desire to get it legislated on as quickly as possible, before everyone realises what exactly it entails.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 01/02/2020 08:41

If our viewpoint was so unusual "no debate" would never have been needed in the first place.