Teen with Aspergers convicted of transgender hate crime, he asked is that a boy or a girl.

It reminds me of the case of an Iranian refugee who was murdered by his neighbour because - well, he was basically a racist, thick, piece of dog poo.

The refugee had mental health issues and had been subjected to a campaign of hate from this person before being murdered. And the police did.......?

If the officer had not been trans - would this still have been a crime?

wellbehavedwomen

How is it very wrong? Who taught them that's its very wrong?

slipperywhensparticus
It must be very hard to navigate all this. It's so unfair

I used to work in an off licence and would regularly be called every name under the sun, for not selling cheap vodka to a 16 year old.
Or cigarettes or cider...anything like that, really.
And i was threatened with physical violence and sexual assault, many a time, too.

It was bloody awful, but you toughen up and learn to deal with it.

In a job like that you either get better, or you get out and it's exactly the same for the PCSO - more so, in fact.

Would it have been a crime to shout 'Is it a boy or a girl?' at someone who was not transgender (or indeed not a police officer), does anyone know?

I'm not blind to the other side of this, despite having a son with a similar disability.

If a large male teenager was yelling that question jeeringly in the face of a possibly much smaller female who was just trying to do their job, that is abusive.

But I disagree that the transgender status of the smaller female person makes it automatically a crime.

If he was asking it in an irritatingly repetitive, tactless but simply curious fashion, that's a different issue and more akin to saying 'Is that person really fat or pregnant?' or 'Has that man got paint on his face?' as one of my (small) children did about a birthmark.

I think the assumption that this young man didn't know what he was doing because he is Aspergers is really questionable, tbh. Both my kids would know this was very wrong, and they are primary aged and ASD.

A person cannot "be Aspergers", he has Aspergers. Also just because you have two kids with ASD who are younger and would know something is wrong, doesn't mean another autistic person would. You know that saying you've met one person with autism? Well it's true, it's a bit annoying on mumsnet to be honest, the number of people who pop up to say "well i wouldn't allow my autistic child to get away with that/my autistic child would know that was wrong."
Almost like they can't concieve the idea that maybe another person's autism is different or more severe than their child's.

This case is not only absurd it's insulting, the police consistently do fuck all when disabled people are harassed in the street but they've got time to arrest people for asking a question.
But that seems to be the way things are going at the moment, trans seems to be prioritised over pretty much everyone else. I mean according to that screenshot Poota helpfully posted insults towards LGBT people are worse, because "people can be seriously harmed or killed."
And they list that as a difference, so no disabled people were ever attacked or killed then?
Funny, I remember reading a whole book about such crimes in the UK. But no, must have imagined it apparently 😡😡

So a WPC can be asked 'are you a lezza?' or 'oi are you a bloke?' and be told to stop being sensitive and 'grow a pair' - yet this (Aspergers aside) is a hate crime, taking up valuable police and court time?

This person isn't robust enough for the job I think. I worked with a few people who worked as volunteer officers and they got dogs abuse when they were in uniform (and noone was convicted of anything). Why has this become a Teflon issue?

@Poota that guidance literally says it's worse than bullying over racism or disability. And the reasons why are clearly bullshit.

Every single one of the aggravating factors applies more to a disabled child than an LGBT one, and I can't see many that don't also apply to black kids, especially boys, in the culture we live in. Girls and women are notably not mentioned at all, yet we are harassed, discriminated against, abused and harmed all our lives on the basis of sex - and school is one of the worst places that happens. One rape a day every school day of the year, and those are just the ones reported to the police. And how many less grave attacks are there - and disabled girls are the most guaranteed targets, too. There's an exponential growth in home ed for SEN kids. Most of them seem to be autistic, and bullying is often a key cause. How is that not an additional aggravating factor? That it cause a child to be unable to access a school education safely at all?

All bullying is bad and should be addressed, and LGBT kids deserve protection from harm and abuse, and also to be treated with courtesy and respect, as all people do - but to create a hierarchy in this manner is bizarre and wrong. Racism and ableism are not less serious than homophobia or transphobia. And misognyny is apparently not a problem at all.

@snowblight you surely can't think that that is okay? All kids should be protected from bullying, and those bullied for inherent factors should be protected equally from harm - no?

snowblight, I don't give a shit what people want to wear or call themselves. I do care that a teenage autistic has been criminalised and widely criticised for behaving like an autistic and stating the fucking obvious. Tone-policing like this is anti-autistic. Do you know anything about it? Have you any idea of the kind of pressure incidents like this puts on autistics and their families? I don't want to fucking walk down the street now with my 11 year old. Not because she might hear something that she doesn't quite like, but because she could be fucking ARRESTED for speaking!

My son does this at 7 with special needs he is going to get worse when he is older what will they do lock him up?

even if you took away all the supposed concerns about self-ID etc, some people here would still have an issue with the fact that someone is trans. That's just hateful prejudice.

It wasn't 'some people here' tactlessly asking whether this cop was a boy or a girl. It was a teenager with a diagnosed disability involving social interaction, mind-blindness and communication. A disability that by definition is likely to make him less able to 'read' other people's feelings.

Would you blame a blind person for hate crime if they called a transman 'Miss' on hearing their voice?

We have an issue with the fact that people are being treated as criminals for shouting "is it a boy or girl." That a person with aspergers has been given a fine and a curfew. Do you hear yourself snow.
Just wait, soon enough your opinions won't be good enough either, the though police will be coming for you too. Nothing is good enough and the goal posts will keep on moving.

Yes, I'm sure there would be a thread here if the victim was anything other than trans.

Lots of victims here on this thread talking about being cat called and shouted abuse at them by men.
Oh even an office saying she's had bones broken and spat at.
There's been plenty of threads on here about this kind of abuse against women snow but the police don't count them as a hate crime.

Harry the Owl:

A week ago, I reported that my family has been threatened with rape and being skinned alive, and so far not so much as a PCSO has picked up the phone.

The double standards need to be continually highlighted.

For the first time I'm glad Labour lost the election. I'm glad that people can no longer pretend this is a left wing agenda, there is nothing left wing about any of this.

This is the removal of human rights and persecution of various groups behind a smoke screen. This is a parody of human rights.

I think the assumption that this young man didn't know what he was doing because he is Aspergers is really questionable, tbh. Both my kids would know this was very wrong, and they are primary aged and ASD. If he knew, and it was because the target was trans, then that is shitty and some punishment would be called for. It's not okay to bully, harass, malign or abuse anyone.

I just disagree that a very large fine and a curfew is proportionate. Especially when you recall that the six foot tall male 21 year old who chose to repeatedly hit a 61 year old woman with osteoporosis, purely because she wanted to attend a meeting on women's rights, the day after announcing that he was going to, "fuck up some T*RFS" was fined less than half that amount, with no other penalty. And that individual was also caught on film physically intimidating a young woman on the same side, because she tried to stop the attack continuing.

My issue isn't the prevention of abuse. If this young man knew what he was saying was abusive, he deserved a slap on the wrist and the clear demarcation of what is acceptable behaviour. My issue is the disproportionate application of the law between the cases, especially when you recall the difference in treatment between this, and Selina Todd, who was facing actual threats of harm. In fact you could also look at the difference between the way tweets are treated when women are threatened with rape, torture and murder, and when someone tweets a limerick that offends.

This is terrifying.

likewise the 50 or more teenage girls who were raped by a gang in Glasgow of over 10 asylum seekers from Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Morocco, Pakistan TWO YEARS ago. But the police did not report it in the media (or did they demand it pe supressed and a compliant media said yes?) One or two convictions and jail here, one or two deported and some whose fate is not known. Hey ho just poor bad girls - That which the Right hand possess is thine to do with what thy will?

Attached is a screenshot from the CPS schools training which has been causing waves.

In it, you will clearly read that insults towards LGBT+ people are worse than insults towards others with protected characteristics. It's not me saying this - read for yourselves.

Snowblight - a PP said this thread should go on the main boards - and I agree with that.

This case though, happens to be part and parcel of the legislation we're discussing at length here on FWR. It is legislation that is going into our children's schools, and will impact women who want to define "woman" as an 'adult human female', our children who want to discuss sex and gender in schools. Therefore it is also relevant to this board.

But if the ‘victim’ wasn’t ‘trans’ this never would’ve been prosecuted so there would be no news story and thus no thread!

Crikey, Snowblight, have a listen to yourself!

When I was 15, a boy used to sit behind me in RE and describe in detail what he'd like to do to me with the help of a jar of Vaseline. No one thought for a moment that he should be prosecuted. Though they did admittedly realize he was a nasty piece of work and he was not allowed to carry on into the sixth form.

Snowblight, do you think he should have been prosecuted? I'm just a tedious female, in case that informs your judgement.

Yes, I'm sure there would be a thread here if the victim was anything other than trans.

I'm doubtful there'd be a conviction to be reported tbf.

Men couldn't afford to make misogyny a crime if they'd have to pay £200 for each conviction.

*I have a problem with a teenage lad being criminalised, called a yob in the press, fined, curfewed, when he's a clearly a vulnerable adult, for saying "is it a boy or is it a girl".

Hope that clears it up for you.*

Yes, I'm sure there would be a thread here if the victim was anything other than trans.

... teenage lad being criminalised, called a yob in the press, fined, curfewed..

£200 of that was compensation

Declan Armstrong, 19, was put under a nightime curfew and ordered to pay £590 - including the £200 compensation to PCSO Freel.