Does anyone else feel isolated for their views on gender?

I work in a very woke organisation (Stonewall top 50) and I'm careful about how I speak at work.
My sister in law and her wife, who are bisexual, think I'm completely wrong, which saddens me as I love them dearly. We just don't talk about it. I have a few very GC friends and am involved in setting up a meeting in our part of Scotland. I have spoken about the issue to close friends who broadly agree with me.
My 72 year old dad sent me a link about Selina Todd the other day - I was very proud.
DH would definitely like me to shut up!

I remember first bringing this up in a private facebook group a couple of years ago, thinking all the women in there would immediately see how absurd the TWAW mantra was. It had been mentioned a couple of times before, but I really was getting very worried about it at the time.
A couple of the 'dominant' members of the group decided I was basically a terrible bigot (without ever explicitly saying so) and consequently the debate got shut down.
Despite support from a large number of group members privately, people just were too afraid of causing offence so it is now one of the 'Subjects We Must Never Mention'.
I remain horrified that women could be so willing to throw other women under the bus. I understand some people have to keep quiet because of their jobs or roles (even private group posts can of course be screen-shotted) But the collusion of those who were willing to support me privately but not in the actual group still rankles.

I'm a hobbyist writer and the writing community is gaga for this stuff.

Me too. The online writing community has seriously lost its mind on this issue, some of my favourite authors among them. Fortunately I'm just a hobbyist so it doesn't affect me too much, but I pity anyone who has GC views and wants to be published in today's market.

(oops posted too soon)

think I sound like a conspiracy theorist when I bring up the problems with "just be kind" in every case.

I generally avoid the topic online (except here anonymously). I don't use Twitter and I see Facebook as a way of keeping in touch with friends rather than have political arguments, plus I'm wary of attracting attention from the more scary TRA types. I do have one FB friend (more an acquaintance) who's v vocal about trans rights and other fashionable issues; I muted her recently after she went into a rant about JKR being a t*f.

I've had a few discussions in real life, and most agree that TWANW even though sometimes it's kind to treat them like women. But they're seldom aware of the more dodgy cases, like J Yaniv or Karen White, and I think I sound like a conspiracy theorist when I br

Sometimes.

Some friends (ok let's face it mainly misogynistic gay male friends, woke bro straight Labour activists who are loving the chance to tell women to shut up, and a few North American women who are desperate to reject the strict gender norms they grew up with and think this stuff is radical) are vocally TWAW and so I avoid talking to them about it. I also make a downwards revision in my estimation of their thinking and our friendship.

A whole load more, especially the most conventional ones, get nervous and 'Oo so controversial and difficult' if I mention it.

And then there's a lot of others who I've got to know better and value more because of shared GC views. Varied group from lesbians scared to say anything publicly to Catholics to activists.

So it's all been rather mixed and sometimes painful but overall I've found stronger relationships with women who I can respect

I think the term pansexual is useful to trans people so they know whether a person they are interested in would open to dating them.

It people could just stick to the following that would be fine by me.

Trans woman WLTM pansexual woman = fine

Trans woman WLTM lesbian = not fine

Trans woman WLTM bisexual woman = not fine

If pansexual was simply a way to indicate that a person was open to sex and relationships with trans people, it wouldn't be a big deal.

Yet bisexuality has been taken over to mean attraction to one or more genders. Heterosexual transwomen have taken over the label of lesbian and throw around terms like lady dick and that people shouldn't bat at eyelid at the idea of lesbians having penises.
There is a lot of peer pressure among young people to view sexual orientation as outdated and exclusionary and something to be shunned. The implied message is that pansexuality is the only 'correct' way to be. It is a loaded term that comes with a specific set of ideological viewpoints.

I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people who call themselves pansexual would not genuinely find the 'hybrid' bodies of some trans people attractive. They have possibly not even spent much time contemplating such encounters. It is a convenient label to signify to your social group how progressive you are, and it keeps the nosy / aggressive TRA types from asking you too many questions or confronting you about your political views in terms of transgender ideology.

There has been sexual interest in trans people long before the politicised term pansexual was invented. For example, there are niche porn categories of people with breasts and penis etc that are popular with some men.

Not that much day-to-day in real world interactions, most of my friends and family think it’s totally batshit thinking and that GC is the ‘common sense’ position. For my group of friends it covers all political affiliations, I’m politically left leaning on most subjects and have friends who are a mix in terms of personal politics.

My young adult children are the ones I see the biggest conflict in. They know and understand the biological facts but there’s so much societal pressure to drink the Kool Aid and accept this ‘new truth’. That conflict is magnified when they have friends who are trans.

I don't mind the term pansexual (apart from it being a trendy thing for teens to identify as).
A lot of gay or bi men are not at all attracted to trans women, for example, why should they be?
But those bi men that are can use pan if they want to distinguish.
Same with bi women, those that are attracted to trans women can call themselves pan, those that don't = bi.

I don't think that's where the term pansexual came from, even if some people use it that way.

In any case, a lot of the discussion about sexualities comes down to how much we see our way of thinking about those categories as being socially or culturally influenced.

There are two sexes. Bi sexual are attracted to both.

Yes. But most people expect a woman to have breasts and vagina and a man to have a flat chest, facial hair and penis.

Pan is more a response to people finding themselves able to be attracted to say someone who looks (reasonably) like a woman, has breasts and a penis, or someone with a full beard, flat chest and a vagina. A lot of people see those variants (or hybrids as someone said) as being outside of the expected sex Binary particularly in terms of physical attributes. Even though, yes there are only two reproductive sex classes.

I like my men and my women to be at least sure of themselves, and kind people. All of the trans people I've met I've either felt scared of their behaviour, or wanted to motherly protect

I can understand that you don’t want to date someone emotionally unstable or unpleasant or terminally unhappy with themselves. Some people who have transitioned don’t have dysphoria because it’s been treated.

Whether or not you could fall in love with someone without that being predicated on a particular combination of primary and secondary sex characteristics only you (general you) know. It’s probably more important to most, but not necessarily all.

As far as the number of intelligent, well educated people who believe this, in a way I have not been surprised. I came to the conclusion some time ago that a university degree is no longer a good indication of really being educated, and that seemingly educated people often have few thinking skills. The latter are not the same as having a middle class accent or a professional job or reading books and knowing all the right cultural information. I read something recently which suggested that educated people didn't actually think things through better, they just made more convincing sounding arguments, and that reflects my own experience.

I do at times. I suspect that more would agree with me than I know, but I'm hesitant to bring it up in many cases. My dh thinks it's all cracked but isn't terribly political. My parents/siblings etc tend to be in the middle, a little skeptical but not really realising how far things have gone. My sister who is in health care tends to think of it as a sort of polite fiction I think.

A big issue for many of these people is that there is no reporting on it so it just goes under the radar, Canada has no mainstream news that have been looking at this, nothing that compares to the coverage in the UK.

I do have a few close friends who totally get it, one lost a job in academia over stating a public opinion on it, and fairly recently a good friend of mine from my parish brought it up with me. There's a young person in our congregation who's just had a double mastectomy which he was feeling very concerned about. He's a gay man and I think felt it was a little outside his wheelhouse and so he didn't want to make a rash statement, but we had a really good talk about feeling alienated from one's own body and what the teen girl experience was etc. Because of this young person I've found myself having to guard a lot of my discussion and I'm uncomfortable about it, but I feel both that there are several fragile personalities involved in that situation, and several very woke people who would basically try and run me out of my work.

I think this is part of the problem, although I don't know what the solution is. We don't challenge the people who agree with the ideology for fear of upsetting them.

I think it's important to differentiate challenging and badgering. In a political context we need to be able to talk about this stuff openly and I think it's good if people can talk about issues socially as well. But when people disagree, they need to be able to go to their jobs, or meet with their family, without it being constantly brought up.

Thankfully in real life it's not a problem. Genderism hasn't reached my part of the home counties yet and my children are still at primary school. When I raise the subject with friends they're mostly utterly baffled that it's an issue, and my family are all firmly gc.

Online though, it's completely different. I'm a hobbyist writer and the writing community is gaga for this stuff. I feel very isolated, but shamefully keep my head down and rage in private about the number of brilliant female writers who write so beautifully about women's lives but mindlessly repeat TWAW. I just keep thinking, how can you believe that? How?

I do feel lonely. All my close female friends (of varied political beliefs and backgrounds) are gender critical. But some of my wider friendship group basically think I'm a horrendous bigot.

I've been told by LGBT friends that TW simply have female brains, which I always thought was misogynistic bullshit from the 1950s, now passed off as cutting edge science.

I have a lot of sympathy for people who do struggle with gender, a tool of of the patriarchy, but I can't see how TW are women. How can a woman be an undefinable feeling distinct from biology?

But what depresses me most is the slew of high profile feminists, celebrities etc endorsing this. Roxane Gay believes TWaw. So does Margaret Atwood. I just don't understand how they can believe this.

Mostly everyone I know is GC.
Although I was surprised someone I knew and considered to be sensible and educated said we had to use cis as the youth use it. Fuck off.

I am disappointed a few lesbians I follow (hobby related, they just happen to be lesbians) are very much transwomen are real women... all in relationships with biological women strangely. Assume none are interested in a female penis.

Im waiting for inevitable backlash of those who’ve had puberty blockers and change their minds. Or we find out the real long term consequences of them. As they dismantle the NHS who is going to pay for their lifelong hormones. Who are they going to go to when they are infertile?

My poor DC have to hear me banging on about it too when I cry "Sex, not gender, SEX!" at some politician on the telly. I try not to tell them what to think but I do prioritise scientific fact in my take on things - but that's normal for me in other areas too. And if school were to try promoting genderism I would fight it.

I'm often amazed by just how very few women I know are on, or aware of, MN and/or don't seem aware of feminist arguments at all.

I certainly feel quite isolated at times. I'm a bit odd in that I move in a number of different social circles with little overlap, and I'm fairly tight lipped about my opinions in general, so I don't think people know how strong my GC views are.

I don't tend to talk about this stuff with friends or acquaintances or colleagues. My partner has to bear the brunt of listening to me, and does get a little exasperated at times with me banging on about it, but I think over the past year he's come to appreciate how complex and wide reaching the trans ideology is and he feels uncomfortable participating in discussions at his work because his colleagues are liberal / leftie / woke.

I have been fairly cautious at work, but one of my colleagues and I have had an interesting exchange in recent months. I'm sure many of the people I know would agree with me on some things and disagree on others. Other social circles I've dabbled in are very woke, hip and 'progressive' so they would not tolerate any questions as many of them are all about being non-binary, pansexual etc etc.

Someone I used to date went full on TRA and immersed herself in this ideology. I think she deleted and blocked me on social media even though I have never made any overtly critical statements but I did challenge some of the things she or her friends posted. It made me sad when I realised she was no longer on my friends list. I guess we are very different people. It's probably for the best, but still hurts a little. I hope she is well.

I have talked to three friends recently, women roughly my own age (40s/50s) and been honest about my GC views and concerns and had them say "Yes! Thank god you feel the same way, this totally makes sense" but they had just been worrying quietly, rather than being aware of an actual feminist movement on this issue. Two if them had friends/relatives with "ROGD" DDs who identify as boys, and were in a very upset and worried state about it - I recommended Transgender Trend, and no one had heard of it.

However I probably was aware at some level that they'd be open-minded. I'd be less likely to discuss it with for example a younger school mum who'd be more likely to have the "be kind" view and no clue about sex-based feminism, judging by previous experiences!

I've also had a couple of weird "between the lines" conversations with an ed psych and another professional who I've had dealings with regarding my DD (she has other issues, nothing to do with gender). It's come up in conversation and I've suggested that I have my doubts about it and they've trotted out the official confirmation line while making hints or grimaces to suggest they have doubts too.

Nope, I don't really know any "woke" people, to be honest, although I do know some liberal progressives, TWAW seems to be where they draw their line.
In work type situations it never comes up thankfully.
There are quite a few "pan" girls at DDs secondary school, and an asexual one, but DD rolls her eyes at it all.

In my personal life no, bit embarrassing as I used to adhere to the 'let's just be nice' viewpoint and campaigned for trans rights so some friends I know avoid the subject as they don't realise the scales have well and truly fallen from my eyes

DC and OH also used to have the 'can't we all just be nice' view but I've been dropping in info from here and they have fully converted to GC viewpoint, must admit to being helped greatly by one DC sharing a house with a TW for a while . Family members are almost all on board except a student.

I'm careful who I broach the subject in real life as I've no wish for intimidation from trans activists but refreshingly the vast vast majority of people I encounter in RL who've thought about this are TWANW. The biggest problems are either intimidation which stops people saying anything publicly or people thinking this is so ridiculous that it will rebalance without us needing to do anything

Mostly day to day it doesn't come up and unless there's a reason like an article people are talking about I don't bring it up as lecturing people doesn't work.

I have met one (temp) colleague who believes TWAW, because she has a lovely transwoman friend and identifies as kind, when we directly discussed it her points were very weak though, deeply ingrained in sexism that she couldn’t really see

We leave the topic alone when she is there though, don’t want her to feel got at.

I think this is part of the problem, although I don't know what the solution is. We don't challenge the people who agree with the ideology for fear of upsetting them.

I found myself in this situation when someone mentioned to a group of us about a girl she knew who wanted to be a boy, and how the girl's school were insisting that all the staff refer to this girl as 'he'. Everyone said it was ridiculous apart from one woman (a retired teacher ) who said that the girl was a boy if she said she was.

We moved on to other subjects as this one woman seemed quite upset that we disagreed with her, even though I'd have liked to have challenged her about it and ask her how she came to have such an absurd opinion.

TRAs are never bothered about upsetting other people.

Fortunately no issues as most of my friends, family and work colleagues think the idea that TWA actually W is silly and untrue and that transing kids is beyond the pale.
However a close friend, a gay man, and I do not agree although he has recently said that some of it is too extreme eg MacKinnon. We agreed to disagree as we value the friendship.
Have tried dropping a few comments in with school mums just had confused looks so far

(DD is currently adamant that there are girl colours and boy colours and is being told in no uncertain terms by me that this is nonsense)