Dublin couple jailed for facilitating the FGM of their 21 month old

I can see that a judge could think, 'the only utterly dreadful, abusive thing they will likely ever do has been done so if I jail them all I do is put a child in care who has mostly loving parents and traumarise her further'.

Think about what FGM is. I would find it more likely that someone who could do something so violent, bloody, painful and terrifying to a child has broken a psychological barrier. The next violation would be easier.

Deterrence is a key part of sentencing. The justice system is about society not just individuals.

I think that raises broader questions about what you think the purpose of punishment in the criminal justice system should be.

I personally disagree that deterrence should form a key part of sentencing. There's little evidence that it's effective and the morality concerns me.

Of course a thorough assessment of risk to the child would have to be carried out, and in many cases removal may well be in the child's best interests. But I do think the child's best interests needs to be a key consideration.

For me the best interests of an individual child are more important than using custodial sentences as a deterrent

These parents have shown they have not the remotest idea of what is in their child's interest. They haven't even managed to clear the very low hurdle of don't deliberately do harm.

Deterrence is a key part of sentencing. The justice system is about society not just individuals. Heavy sentences shouldn't be arbitrary but a clear message about how abominable this practice is in this society needs to be sent.
If the parents are prepared to flout the law on this, what comes down the line - forced marriage?

in this instance I think the role of incarceration should be clear; to protect the child

The harm to this girl has sadly already been done. All that can be done is to try and minimise further harm, and I think that has to take into account whether being removed from her parents is necessarily in a child's best interests. In some cases it may well be, but I'm prepared to accept that that may not always be the case.

For me the best interests of an individual child are more important than using custodial sentences as a deterrent. In any event, I think education and community engagement is more likely to affect change than threats of punishment.

The French former justice minister Rachida Dati summed up France's attitude, saying: "This mutilation has no foundation in any religion, philosophy, culture or sociology. It is a serious and violent abuse of a female. It cannot be justified in any way. FGM is a crime."

A thousand times this.

It's a shit situation which I don't think prison solves

The UK has tried tip toeing round this for years. France took a much harder line and has been more successful at combating FGM.

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/10/france-tough-stance-female-genital-mutilation-fgm

Is there a way to engage community leaders, the immams, get more women from the community trained as health visitors and doctors and nurses, get it into schools? Are there countries successfully reducing it in innovative ways?

You know sometimes it just has to be said your cultural traditions are barbaric and unacceptable. The British in India took a hard line on sutee.

The French former justice minister Rachida Dati summed up France's attitude, saying: "This mutilation has no foundation in any religion, philosophy, culture or sociology. It is a serious and violent abuse of a female. It cannot be justified in any way. FGM is a crime."

My two cents.

FGM is one of the most disgusting crimes I can think of. I am aware of the social and societal pressures that some of these parents feel, but I stand by that point. The parents have shown no remorse. in this instance I think the role of incarceration should be clear; to protect the child. A minimum custodial sentence of 18 years would keep those "parents" away from the child until they are an adult. I wasn't hugely popular at our FGM awareness training when I was a teacher.

If anyone really wants, I can regale them with some of the FGM awareness training I received as a teacher. Maybe it will help to put things "into context", maybe not. Its pretty depressing either way.

www.thejournal.ie/trinity-college-unfairly-dismissed-lecturer-at-centre-of-controversial-prime-time-comments-on-fgm-4603839-Apr2019/

This creep has been given a platform for years in Ireland, airing his views on how we should accommodate people who want to ban their children from learning music and drama or to segregate boys and girls for religious reasons. He refused to condemn Osama bin Laden or the London Tube bombers. He realised he went too far with his FGM comments and the apology is hollow. The university he taught in til recently is one which cancelled a recent talk by Maryam Namazie because she was too controversial.

We're making the same stupid mistakes as everyone else, in short, a generation or two behind, and failing to protect women and children from immigrant communities for fear of being called racist. At least that conviction is something.

Not to mention doing it in such a way that they presented at A&E with the child still bleeding in a way confirmed as life threatening, and claimed she 'fell on a toy'.

Words fail.

What loving relationship there was before they had this done to the child will have been significantly damaged by their subjecting the child to this. They're not just irrevocably mutilated her body and caused her gynecological and sexual issues for a lifetime, there will also be the trauma caused to her brain. Plenty of women have shared testimony on how far into life that damage continues.

I know the dire outcomes for children in care, it should always be a last resort, but it's hard to think of much worse harm they could have done to her.

But a basic principle of justice is not sentencing people for other people's crimes. The deterrent effect should be a byproduct rather than the reason.

Is there a way to engage community leaders, the immams, get more women from the community trained as health visitors and doctors and nurses, get it into schools? Are there countries successfully reducing it in innovative ways?

Prison perhaps solves nothing for this little girl, but it should act as a deterrent to other parents who are considering doing this.

"She said the couple had shown a lack of remorse and had not provided any insight into what had occurred."

This is what I'd expect from loving parents who genuinely think they did the right thing, no matter how awful the act is.

Believe me I have issues with how to feel. Emotionally I think, "let them rot in prison" but them I think of a toddler who doubtless wants her mum. And will either still grow up in a family that does this (I assume the aunt may be cut) or in care, which is awful. And unlikely to be culturally appropriate so there's belonging issues twice.

It's a shit situation which I don't think prison solves.

I really get your points MrsTerryPratchett and I feel awful for the child who's been permanently harmed by her parents choices, and the question now of 'would she be further harmed to be permanently removed from her parents'.

My struggle or conflict is when that child grows up and realises what her parents have done to her, how will she feel?

Don't we always remove children from abusive situations for safeguarding?

And given that the article states
"She said the couple had shown a lack of remorse and had not provided any insight into what had occurred."

If this child is returned to her parents, and is nurtured to believe FGM is normal and healthy, will she perpetuate, or be coerced in to perpetuating, the abuse on any female children she may go on to have?

If education hasn't worked, and threat of sanctions haven't worked, how do we break the cycle?

But then I read your posts, specifically I can see that a judge could think, 'the only utterly dreadful, abusive thing they will likely ever do has been done so if I jail them all I do is put a child in care who has mostly loving parents and traumarise her further'.

I'm left feeling like do I / society have the right to remove children from parents for 'their best interests' in these kinds of cases, and where does this end?

Yes, my arse has splinters.

Good, but without a substantial sentence the message that you cannot do this to your children isn't going to be taken on board.

No forced adoption in Ireland though. That poor little girl.

I hope the child is somewhere safe now and they don’t get her back.

The trauma of being permanently removed from parental care, regardless of how shot that care is, is enormous. It's good to hear she's with family. But in some cases this would be a removal to care, not family. And care is a feminist issue as well considering the epidemic levels of sexual abuse girls in care suffer.

I'm not justifying FGM BTW. I'm just saying it's a horrible trauma compounded by a horrible trauma.

I heard this on RTE news. The report said there are two other children in the family, and all three are now being cared for by an aunt.

I'm glad this has resulted in a prosecution.