Keira Bell

Instead of, you know, 'coming out', waving a rainbow flag.

Indeed rogdmum.

I'm desperate for a conversation with women like Carmichael, who are at the coalface of what children are saying, to explain why she thinks they all have gender dysphoria. What is it trying to do for them?

We all know how our bodies and minds do things to protect us. Allergic reactions, irrational fears, etc. It's all with good intentions.

What is the brain's intention behind these girls with gender dysphoria? We have a pretty good idea of many of the reasons on here. But I want that on the table. So that people can see whether or not double mastectomies and hysterectomies are a proportional and appropriate treatment.

What really struck me was that the first question Victoria Derbyshire asked was how they can tell this is what the child really wants. It’s all about wants, not needs, no suggestion of what might be best for that child. Just what do they want and what does that future look like for them.

Took me a while to type that...im easily distracted

I’ll be honest

I dont have a massive issue with adults who transition, i can see that some people feel it will help them

I have a massive issue with putting CHILDREN on this path, giving CHILDREN drugs the full effects of which haven’t been tested without full counseling and in some cases outright lying or fudging of the truth

I cannot impress to everyone on this thread how much of an issue i have with people saying that a 15/16 year old needs to take responsibility for the life changing decisions they made when they have been let down by every PROFESSIONAL adult around them

I know children who wont put their hand up in an exam hall cos they are too embarrassed...i can abso-fucking-lutely guarantee those children would be too embarrassed to ask any questions in a consultation

Thats not their fault...thats the fault of grown ups who have forgotten what its like to be children

Polly Carmichael came across as rather slippery, to my mind.

The two questions that I would like answers to are firstly, where are the results of your study?

And secondly, how many children on puberty blockers, at 11 or 12, then go onto cross sex hormones? Because it's no good hiding behind the fact that cross sex hormones aren't given at 12 or 13, if the decision is made essentially at 12 or 13.

I'm pretty certain Polly Carmichael, or certainly someone at the Tavistock, admitted that puberty blockers 'cement' gender dysphoria. It's a complete lie to pretend that none of this informed consent happens until they are older.

You've really got to be a piece of work to be spending time trying to undermine and scorn a young woman challenging a system which gave her life changing drugs and unnecessary surgery without due diligence. I mean, I can see that oopster is doing it to shore up their own decisions and the currently abusive status quo because that's what this religion requires, so I should probably feel compassion for oopster, but as they can't seem to manage it, and indeed accept that they are 'cruel' in their arguments here, I think I will hold my compassion back for the woman in the situation that oopster feels needs a kicking for heresy.

And she is asking great questions

Victoria Derbyshire now talking about this case

"She may have been 16 when she started puberty blockers, but should would have been at least 18 before going onto testosterone or having any surgery."

She says she was on blockers for a year and then went on to testosterone injections. She would have been 17.

She did not go through any kind of puberty. She did not mature in the way that other people who go through puberty mature.

"The doctors need your consent before any surgery, they tell you the risks before any surgery,"

She went through what she has described as an early menopause. She also asserts that she was not told by the clinic about the symptoms she was to go through.

I had symptoms similar to the menopause when a woman's hormones drop. I had hot flushes, I found it difficult to sleep, my sex drive disappeared. I was given calcium tablets because my bones weakened.'

It seems incredible, but Keira claims she was not warned by the Tavistock therapists of the dreadful symptoms ahead. 'My female hormones had been flushing through my body and, suddenly, a curtain came down on them. It felt pretty bad,

"The doctors need your consent before any surgery, they tell you the risks before any surgery, you have to sign your consent before any surgery. If she wasn't ready or didn't feel it was the right thing for her then she shouldn't have gone through with it. There is no victim here,"

I went in one night and was operated on the next day by a top consultant. My breasts were gone.

'No one at the clinic sat me down beforehand and said: 'Are you certain you want this?' It was all very quick.'

Dear lord Oopster. Either you are offering up a completely uninformed opinion, without having read any of the facts. Or you are calling this young woman a liar.

Someone on the Transgender UK subreddit called Keira a ‘Scumbag’. They are so scared of ‘gatekeeping’ they give no shits about what it’s actually like to have endured an unnecessary amputation.

Just to be clear about the nature of the amputation.

These were healthy body parts.

There is no victim here, so I'm not victim blaming

So a girl who profoundly regrets having her breasts amputated at 20 and taking hormones for years that might cause infertility is not a victim? What ethical doctor does this?

Scuse random Victorian map drawing of gasworks!

Irrelevant but not worth bothering the mods for deletion.

they tell you the risks before any surgery, you have to sign your consent before any surgery.

Yet no consent form says , ‘I understand that this surgery will not make me more (insert opposite sex), because it’s not actually possible to change sex, no matter how many surgeries or hormones I have’

This German girl was the same age as Keira when she went through transition. Now she’s asking why did adults castrate her?

That’s her own choice of word, btw, not mine.

she wants someone to blame for her choices

Oopster, what are you saying was her choice? Are you saying that she chose to be a boy
chose to be transgender
chose to fake being transgender
chose to listen to those who agreed she was transgender
chose to accept the medical advice of the day?

I'm not sure what you think should happen when a teenage girl presents to a gender clinic. What are you arguing for? Better gatekeeping? Less medication? More analysis first? Therapy instead of automatic affirmation?

I'm assuming your position isn't just 'Tough luck, kid, your own fault' -- is it?

Coming out is coming out whether you're lesbian, gay, bisexual or trans.

She may have been 16 when she started puberty blockers, but should would have been at least 18 before going onto testosterone or having any surgery. The doctors need your consent before any surgery, they tell you the risks before any surgery, you have to sign your consent before any surgery. If she wasn't ready or didn't feel it was the right thing for her then she shouldn't have gone through with it. There is no victim here, so I'm not victim blaming. She thought she was doing the right thing for her at the time, she later decided for whatever reason that it wasn't. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but it always comes too late.

As someone who's trans, I can understand how someone can feel being perceived as "the wrong sex / gender", and it's not something I would wish on anyone, and anyone considering transitioning, I tell them to make sure they are 100% certain it's the right thing for them, as past certain points there's no going back, but I will support them whatever their choices are as that is their right, it's their life and they have to live with the consequences of their actions, no one else.

Things my kids have said to me at toddler age and up:

I will bang my head on the floor if you don't allow me to only eat ice cream

I will hit myself if you don't let me have this very expensive toy

I will run away from home (i.e. hurt myself) if you won't let me skip school (for no good reason just because I feel like it)

Would I be a good parent if I give into these demands? If I DID give in to them do we think the head banging on the floor behaviour would increase or decrease? (obviously increase - if threats work then you keep using them)

Honestly, the people who give into threats from children aren't fit to be called adults. Yes, counselling support, yes, support them if they're distressed in a variety of ways but you don't give into threats because that's such a slippery slope and it's an abdication of responsibility.

Do we think that the government should give into threats made by terrorists who threaten to blow themselves up too?

In Keira's case it would appear to be based on society's intolerance for what they perceived as her gender non conformity

Datun Well said. Here's Keira's comment on this. Keira has described feeling isolated from her peers and being bullied. It is an indictment of the current trend to fast track girls onto a medical pathway without exploring other therapeutic treatments.

She described her family life as difficult. She also believes if she had felt more accepted by society as she was then, she might not have wanted to changer her gender. She added that she wouldn't have wanted to listen to voices of caution when she was younger. "I feel I could say anything to my 16-year-old self and I might not necessarily listen at that time. And that's the point of this case, when you are that young you don't really want to listen."So I think it's up to these institutions, like the Tavistock, to step in and make children reconsider what they are saying, because it is a life-altering path."

oopster

Can you explain what you mean by coming out? It's not like a sexual orientation. I wish people wouldn't conflate it.

People wishing or wanting to be the opposite sex have several different types of motivation.

In Keira's case it would appear to be based on society's intolerance for what they perceived as her gender non conformity. Very much a recurring theme with young women who identify as trans.

Society is not 'more open' at all! It's become regressive and restricting.

Is no one going to say though that gender does not actually exist.

Humans invented gender; kids are being told they have a gender identity but we should be seeking to abolish gender completely.

Who is profiting from telling kids they have a gender identity?

Could I profit from telling kids that there is a blue eyed identity and a brown eyed identity? If you’re a blue eyed kid who feels brown eyed, get your eye colour changed to brown!

she could have paused or stopped at any point,

She did stop. But by the time her frontal lobe had begun to develop, she’d already had her healthy breasts amputated.

At the end of the day, Keira was an adult when she made her decisions. She went to the clinics, she could have paused or stopped at any point, now, she wants someone to blame for her choices.

Keira Bell was a 16 year old child when she was prescribed puberty blockers. She trusted the medical doctors who failed to suggest any other treatment for her depression At 20, her breasts were amputated. What surgeon does this? This draconian medical intervention is being performed on young girls The middle aged natal males who identify as female are not having surgery to remove body parts. Why? Blaming Keira Bell for 'her choices' when she was 16 years old? Nope. The ethics and motivation of those adult doctors promoting this damaging treatment needs to be rigorously examined.

Yes she was 16. But do carry on with your justifications. It's most enlightening.

Keira was 16 when she was put on this path

That is not an adult