Keira Bell

The author of the study researched using about 6 trans people all in 1 gay bar

You are confusing Ray Blanchard with Michael Bailey.

Datun AGP says that being trans is a fantasy for trans people, a fetish. A fetish doesn't lead you to taking medication or having surgery. The author of the study researched using about 6 trans people all in 1 gay bar who were most likely fetishistic transvestites, not transsexual women. The study may suit those individuals he spoke with, but his methods were flawed and do not apply to the majority of trans people who actually transition.

I do feel sorry for those women who find themselves married to men like this, but again, if we had a more open and honest society these situations wouldn't occur because people could address and deal with their issues openly and honestly.

Let me just clarify something because the language is constantly evolving. I'm simplifying it as much as I can.

A transvestite wears clothing and makes themselves appear as the opposite sex for pleasure but has no want to actually seek medical help.

A transsexual person believes themselves to be the opposite sex / gender and may or may not seek medical help to transition or not.

There's more "groups" but they're the main ones that I think can get confused, and although they may appear similar on the surface, they are very different.

Some comments on this thread (and elsewhere) about Keira so clearly demonstrate how children / young people are being cynically used by adults and adult organisations. All the "she only has herself to blame" demonstrate a chilling lack of understanding of childhood and child psychology / development. The desperation to use children to validate adult wishes is horrifying and the lack of empathy predictable.

This press round seems relentless. I hope she is well supported.

Keira was interviewed on the World at One on Radio 4 today. It was very interesting to hear her speak on the subject. She has my sympathy.

oopster

Of course AGP isn't debunked. There are threads on here that run to thousands of posts from women who are married to or divorced from AGP individuals. AGP forums and websites are strewn across the Internet from one end to the other. Although, some of them of course are called different names. We were told off on here a few weeks ago for calling it AGP when it should be called female embodiment fantasy.

If you're going to go down the road that it's been debunked, then afraid your credibility for everything else is pretty much shot to bits, for me.

Along with imagining that it doesn't affect other people! Involving other people, even unwittingly, in a sexual fantasy absolutely has an impact on them. Try reading about transwidows.

This is a life saving surgery:
www.gosh.nhs.uk/medical-information/clinical-specialties/tracheal-service-information-parents-and-visitors/patient-stories/life-saving-surgery

They are cosmetic surgeries, not ‘Life saving surgery’.

That’s propaganda sloganeering. I know some people sincerely believe that a trans surgery saved their life, but that doesn’t make it a ‘life saving surgery’.
Words have meanings.

Datun AGP is a badly researched and thoroughly debunked theory. How another person chooses to live their life has no bearing on anyone else. The way you describe these surgeries shows his little you know about them. These are life saving surgeries for some people, me included.

re Keiras age this is a relevant read:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51657466

Fewer people under the age of 25 should be jailed because their brains are not fully mature, new draft guidelines say.

The guideline follows research saying imbalances in brain development explain risk-taking and emotionally driven behaviour which can lead to illegal activity.

"Generally speaking a young person's cognitive function will be less developed than an adult person and their life experiences will be different," he said.

The Scottish Sentencing Council's research into cognitive maturity was carried out by the University of Edinburgh, which found that the brain continues to develop well into adulthood and does not reach maturity until about 25 to 30.

A "gender critical" group is bringing the legal action. Oh they don't have any kind of agenda they're using this young woman for are they.

The "agenda" of any gender critical group interested in childhood transition is protecting and safeguarding children's bodies and psychological health.

I've recently met two really pleasant young people, both late teens. One M to F, the other F to M. Both with all sorts of issues, past and current - neglect, behavioural and leaning difficulties, mental health issues. They found/find interaction with their peers and planning their future life difficult enough without the added complication of transitioning. It's not clear at all how this is helping them, or why it's been sanctioned.

Datun when I was going through the system and attending a local supper group and online groups. The one thing that kept coming up was to be totally honest with the psychiatrists. I went through charring cross gic which had, maybe still does, a horrible reputation in trans circles, and the the temptation was to just tell them what they wanted to hear. It was a running joke that you should turn up in your best "Laura Ashley" frock and pearls to appointments, abs that would go double for the transwomen.

That's because, historically, men with AGP, or a cross dressing fetish, were refused treatment. The decision to be honest, lie, not lie, was all wrapped up around that. Coupled with the sexist idea that to live as a woman, meant wearing a dress.

This isn't news.

Children have been told, in no uncertain terms, that their preferences for toys, activities, clothes and behaviour dictates their sex. And for teenagers that includes their sexual orientation.

The head of mermaids, who educate children about this everywhere, removed all her child's toys, because they were girls' toys and she was very upset, because, he was a boy. She says in her TEDTalk, well of course, I'm sure you know the next bit, I took him to the doctor.

This is how entrenched her sexism was and is. She genuinely thought a toy preference indicated an underlying issue.

And this is the world that Kiera Bell has grown up in.

You say she should be honest. That's a fucking joke, right? There is no honesty in an ideology that says cutting your breasts off makes you a man, ffs.

The same way that cutting your penis off, or inverting it, doesn't make you a woman. The sexism that concludes a woman is not a female human being in their own right, as a notion and an identity, is breathtaking.

Look at the other articles by the same Author ‘Vix Parsons’ - it’s the clearest agenda you ever will see - no way this person is an actual, qualified journalist:

www.pinknews.co.uk/author/vic/

A "gender critical" group is bringing the legal action. Oh they don't have any kind of agenda they're using this young woman for are they.

Oh my god! You actually think the propaganda of pink news is real! Fucking hell.

How on earth does anyone square 'be totally honest' with 'but try to convince everyone you're the opposite sex'?

Please, for the love of mike, pick a different term. Just BE transgender. If you were born male and transitioned surgically and socially, you are a male who has transitioned surgically and socially. Good luck and a happy life to you, but you aren't female; you aren't the same sex as a woman.

Yeah, we get that there's a culture of trying to manipulate professionals to get the desired outcome. Obviously if that's what grown adults think is justifiable behaviour, that's one thing.

But it's clearly clouding a lot of people's judgement because they think it's normal and acceptable to manipulate medics into signing off huge interventions, so they overlay that kind of mindset onto the youngsters sucked into the movement with no understanding or acknowledgement of the different issues in play, like development etc.

I'm finding it almost impossible to give consideration to an amorphous 'trans community's fear' given you seem so happy to toss youngsters in the acceptable damage pile.

Thanks for your answer, Oopster.

This whole ideology is so confusing.

You say that 'Assuming Keira was 100% honest with the clinic, no one can really be at fault here.'

So, a female child turns up at a clinic or at her school and says she's a boy. Should people believe her? Is she a boy?

She is surgically altered to resemble a boy. Is she now a boy?

She desists. Was she briefly a boy, then (whilst saying so), or never a boy? Was she 'dishonest' in saying she was a boy, or misled?

Is she now a man, despite saying she isn't? Should people now believe her?

A "gender critical" group is bringing the legal action. Oh they don't have any kind of agenda they're using this young woman for are they.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/03/02/puberty-blockers-families-speak-out-nhs-treatment-high-court-judicial-review-gids-tavistock/

Datun when I was going through the system and attending a local supper group and online groups. The one thing that kept coming up was to be totally honest with the psychiatrists. I went through charring cross gic which had, maybe still does, a horrible reputation in trans circles, and the the temptation was to just tell them what they wanted to hear. It was a running joke that you should turn up in your best "Laura Ashley" frock and pearls to appointments, abs that would go double for the transwomen.

Hopefully, all the facts should come out in the court case and improvements can be made to the service, but you need to understand the fear in the trans community that some people would be happier if these services just disappeared completely.

Datun I'm telling you how it's been for me

Oh, I thought you were telling me how it was for Kiera.

the right procedures were followed,

You cannot give informed consent for a drug when the information around it is unclear, or when it’s negative affects are not discussed with you.

The judge who granted the judicial review sees that there is a query as to whether ‘the right procedures were followed’ - why can’t you see it?

Assuming Keira was 100% honest with the clinic, and the right procedures were followed, then no one can really be at fault here.

What age would you think '100% honesty' wouldn't cut the mustard oopster?

14? 9? 5?

What's the minimum age you would feel the person was more the architect of their own misfortune and less a victim of circumstance?

Datun I'm telling you how it's been for me with every surgery bar one (when I was about 8 or 9) that I've ever had. The risks were explained to me and I had to sign a consent form. I even had to sign a consent form when I went in after a heart attack to get my vein declogged.

I am sorry that this young woman has gone through this, but is she not allowed to make her own decisions? She made the choice based on her circumstances and has come to regret it, its that simple. I don't know what she's going to do about it now but I wish her well, but this is another reason why we need open discussion about this without being pulled in any one direction.

Dodopatrol I'm arguing for more support for these kids, that means more resources so these kinds of things don't happen, but no system is perfect, no system can ever be perfect, it can only be as good as we can possibly make it. Assuming Keira was 100% honest with the clinic, and the right procedures were followed, then no one can really be at fault here. There will be reviews carried out and what to do for the best in future as with all medical treatment. I've walked out of gic appointments and literally felt so down I've felt like walking into traffic, but thankfully I didn't. These places are stretched to the max and not given the support they need and that leads to the patients suffering as a consequence. It's like telling someone with an eating disorder that their condition isn't serious enough for treatment, so then that person that still needs help ends up getting worse. There needs to be more local places so that kids and adults can sit down and discuss the issues in a relaxed atmosphere.