Keira Bell

Satan certainly doesn’t.

Let's face it, GA surgery, hormones, everything- has transformed a lot of people's lives for the better.

I’m guessing “GA” means “genital affirmation”, which rather fluffily glosses over how extreme and mutilating it is. Not to mention the comparatively small numbers who ever have the surgery... due to how extreme and mutilating it is.

I wonder if Jazz Jennings still thinks the surgery was worth it?

Have you read the study?

This is a very specific judicial review to determine if a ‘competent minor’ can give properly informed consent to be treated for gender dysphoria with GnrHa drugs.

Which doesn’t apply to you mr friend, does it?
Nor my mum.

I'm not insulting her! It's not me implying the puberty blockers made her incapable of rational decision making and a lower IQ, is it??

Read the Biggs study. The information you are looking for is there.

Unless you aren’t actually looking for information and are just taking the opportunity to insult a traumatised young woman?

I am making that comparison, somewhat obviously, because Aesop implied that a person having blockers, thus being prevented from 'maturing' in that sex, would have their IQ reduced, and intellectual abilities stunted.

My friend would object to that, quite rightly.

Furthermore, 'IQ reduced??

Would you extrapolate, conversely, to believe a girl who hit sexual maturity at 9 or 10 would have capacity?

My mum had ovarian cancer age 50 and she was just fine after a hysterectomy - no regrets, unlike these silly detransitioners! 🙃🙄

Why would you compare your friends pituitary tumour with Keira Bell’s chemically induced premature menopause?

'Mental maturity halted'?

I think that's a stretch too far.

I have a good friend who hadn't started her period at 18. She was finally diagnosed with a pituitary tumour half way through her first year at HCP uni. I suggest she'd be quite offended with the suggestion she was mentally in arrested development as a result!

However she was 20 when she signed the forms to have her Breasts removed.. Hardly a Child.

What do you mean by hardly a child? Do you mean someone who have matured to a point where they have developed the mental capacity to make these decisions? If so, you are ignoring the fact that her mental maturity was halted at 16, her IQ was reduced and her mood was affected by the puberty blockers. The decision was not made at 20, it was made at 16 went she was sent down that route.

I think it’s more than reasonable!

One of the potential outcomes is that In future all minors who wish to be prescribed these drugs will have to petition a judge for the final decision. Considering gender medicine is very political, that seems like an option that will be better for both patient and clinician.

A judge will now decide if the Tavistock is correct or not

And given the potential and very serious lifetime side effects of the drugs involved, who would argue with that?

She has been damaged, However she was 20 when she signed the forms to have her Breasts removed.. Hardly a Child.

The judicial review is solely focused on whether a ‘competent minor’ can legally give informed consent for a particular type of drug.

The Tavistock and Mermaids say yes, but a bunch of other experts say ‘we don’t really know what the consequences are for this particular group of patients, so ‘informed consent’ may not be possible. A judge will now decide if the Tavistock is correct or not;

But a young person who had been persuaded down a medicalised pathway when she was a child, treated with drugs that had a profound effect on her development, and with surgery as a standard expectation, reinforced by the dogma of transgenderism.
Coercion pure and simple.

She has been damaged, However she was 20 when she signed the forms to have her Breasts removed.. Hardly a Child.

I taught a girl who had to give up a sport she loved and was very good at because of endometriosis. At least, I knew what it was - symptoms were classic. I told her to ask her GP if it might be the problem. He thought not, and it wasn't properly treated (at one point she was given antidepressants). She wasn't properly diagnosed until after she finished University, and had seen a number of GPs.

So a young person is believed when she says she feels male and wants certain bits of her body removed to make her feel more male, yet we still get headlines like this:

Women with endometriosis 'finally being believed' www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-51708887

buttmonki and others who shared experiences of being a tomboy who may have thought they were trans if it was a "thing" back then - did you see the documentary by psychologist Stella O'Malley who had the same experience? Very interesting:
www.stellaomalley.com/trans-kids-time-to-talk

But yes, this thread is about the transitioning of children not adults.

Oopster I agree, that many men with AGP don't have genital surgery, but they certainly have surgery. And yes, it's different to men who have gender dysphoria without AGP.

But in neither case are they women.

And Ray Blanchard has 30 or 40 years experience with gender dysphoria - HSTS and AGP.

But, perhaps we shouldn't derail further.

The area where the two issues intersect is where middle-aged men are encouraging children down the path of transitioning, in order to legitimise the 'always been this way/born in the wrong body' narrative.

The biggest push back Keira will get is from these men. The idea that she has made a mistake, based on society's intolerance to gender nonconformity and backed up to the hilt by GIDS, undermines their narrative.

So it must be stopped or discredited.

How another person chooses to live their life has no bearing on anyone else.

This is where maybe you actually need to really take in what you read on these threads. When it is women’s rights and even the meaning of the very language describing women and their biology that is being changed, the bearing on other women is clear.

I am sure as a transperson, you have your own experiences of discrimination and harassment.

However, when it is women who have to make way and lose single sex toilet access (when the men’s remains unchanged), and loss focus on ensuring women actually get equal access to employment and educational opportunities by ‘budging over’ and having those opportunities reduced. And this will continue to diminish because the protections are being erased.

Reduced because males who have never not been offered that job or promotion because they either have potential for taking maternity leave or actually have children, are now women. Or that those women missing out have taken a more circuitous way to get the education and qualifications due to lack of access or encouragement to achieve those qualifications. Or women’s sports and any sport scholarships.

No, You have accused GC groups of an ‘agenda’. It seems the people insisting that women ‘make way’ have really failed to give an alternative remedy for these realities - because they deny they are either still needed or that they deserve them without extra provision being made to make up the opportunities taken if that is even possible.

After all, when labour says their women’s shortlists would be acceptable to be 100% taken by transwomen as they are women, obviously women are NOT being harmed.

I, too, hope Keira is well supported. It is a brave step to put yourself in the firing line at such a young age to protect other children. If you are reading Keira, I wish you luck.

Talking about adult experiences of transitioning in a thread about a judicial review to explore the medical evidence, ethics and legality of transitioning children is coming across like derailing to me, however sincere oopster is in discussing their adult experience. Not the subject of this judicial review, not relevant to this thread IMO.