Keira Bell

I've not seen this before and currently I've read down as far as Social Transitioning. This attitude from them seems better, more open than when I attended round about 2001-2007, but you'd hope that things would have improved in that time. The main thing that seems to have gotten worse is waiting times, but that is down mainly to the increase in patients seeking help I pressume. Let me tell you a little something else though. Not everyone who attends a GIC as a patient will transition or have any surgery, because not everyone that attends wants or needs that. Some may just need to talk to someone about how they're feeling, and that's simply one thing the GIC's do.

I know that everyone's getting up in arms about someone who's regretted transitioning and having surgery, but based purely on numbers, that's going to happen. I'm sorry that it does happen to some I really am, but remember or realise this, I'm in a positiion where I'm going to know a lot more trans people than the average commentator on these threads, off the top of my head I can name at least 20 people in the UK and a dozen more round the world. My ex is trans, believe me when I tell you that our lives we're a lot more about the normal mundane things than being trans.

AGP has been discussed on this thread, and while I think it's a load of rubbish about transsexual people, it could be assigned to those who are transvestites instead in some cases, but there is a big difference between someone who is a transsexual and someone who is a transvestite, the language keeps changing and evolving which can confuse the issue whether you keep up with the changes or not.

The fact still remains that the majority of the people commenting here have no experience of the GIC system, so all you can do is speculate.

Which is why we are in favour of Keira’s judicial review and the proposed government inquiry in ROGD, which is a new phenomenon, so we parents of ROGD are far more likely to be informed than transsexuals of 20 years or more standing.

The world is different now.

It took only 10 months for my young adult daughter to be prescribed testosterone from Charing Cross. That's 10 months from first going to see the GP.

She'd only started calling herself non binary 4 months prior to that.

In our experience as long as you say the right things, conform to script and sound convincing, you are good to go.

I'm not saying this is the speed that everyone is seen at but I do know that if you are determined enough you can get there very quickly.

Oh, and her prescribing clinician told her he'd never had anyone change their mind in all his many years of practice.

This is the reality of what we're dealing with here.

You're right Dodopatrol, it takes longer now. The fact still remains that the majority of the people commenting here have no experience of the GIC system, so all you can do is speculate. I couldn't even get painkillers for a condition I've had for 40 years as my GP says doctors aren't so willing to hand out "powerfull addictive meditions" nowadays, nevermind the fact I've lived with the condition since I was about 4 and know nothing else but what I'd asked for works (before anyone asks it's severe leg aches, I've been to the doctors with it for years).

Keira did what she thought was right at the time, the medical people we're trying to help her and did what they thought was the right thing at the time.

Professor Carl Heneghan (Oxford Evidence Based Medicine )was interviewed last year on Panorama & as a consequence of his analysis concluded that 'informed consent is not possible'

BMJ EBM Spotlight paper:
'Gender-affirming hormone in children and adolescents – Evidence review'
Posted on 25th February 2019

(extract)
"Gender dysphoria occurs when a person experiences discomfort or distress because of a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. Gender dysphoria can arise in childhood and adolescent which raises many questions about how best to handle the condition. This post sets out the current evidence for gender-affirming hormones in adolescents and children to aid decision making. (continues)

"Conclusions

There are significant problems with how the evidence for Gender-affirming cross-sex hormone has been collected and analysed that prevents definitive conclusions to be drawn. Similar to puberty blockers, the evidence is limited by small sample sizes; retrospective methods, loss of considerable numbers of patients in follow-up. The majority of studies also lack a control group (only two studies used controls). Interventions have heterogeneous treatment regimes complicating comparisons between studies. Also adherence to the interventions are either not reported or at best inconsistent. Subjective outcomes, which are highly prevalent in the studies, are also prone to bias due to lack of blinding, and many effects can be explained by regression to the mean.

The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research. Treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms, including death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice."
blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

What I'm saying is, this process from start to finish takes years, but so many times I read things by people who obviously have no idea and think you can just walk into a doctors surgery, take some pills and bam! that's it.

This is an account from last year of the group lectures at Charing Cross GIC.
Young people just after their 18th birthday are called to attend (parents are not allowed to accompany their children)

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/85masl/notes_from_the_charing_cross_gic_information_day/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

Maybe it used to take years, Oopster. That’s your experience from 20 years ago. It looks like things have changed, wouldn’t you agree?

You have no experience. Of GIDs or paediatric transition, Oopster.

None.

I’m not saying they would give a 13 year old hormones on a first visit, that would be ludicrous.

I am saying it is a step on a pathway that leads only in one direction, no forks, no meandering off in the bushes.

And GIDs and the adult service are not the same anyway.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER this is not my experience, this is not the experience of pretty all of the people I know who've attended the Charring Cross GIC. They're hesitant at best to proceed you through the process, it's all "wait and see". You don't turn up to your first appointment and they're busy writing you a prescription for hormones. It took 3 years for me to get an initial appointment with them after seeing local therapists for months. I first went to see my GP in 1997, and didn't get to see a GIC till 2001. Apointments we're a minimum 5 months apart due to the number of patients they we're seeing, and there was an 18 month period where I didn't see anyone as the person I was down to see wasn't available, holiday or similar was what I assumed at the time but I was never told. I was 22 when I first went to my gp for help. Up until that point I had only told one person as I was too scared to talk to anyone. There was no internet, and I was too scared to go look in a library.

What I'm saying is, this process from start to finish takes years, but so many times I read things by people who obviously have no idea and think you can just walk into a doctors surgery, take some pills and bam! that's it.

Keira's parent or parents or legal guardians will have had to consent to treatment before Keira was old enough to do so. Do none of you think that they will have been talking to her, challenging her about her gender identity? My mother did after I came out to her, she came up with all things, that's what people do, they ask questions, some that seem silly and little, and others serious. If you think otherwise then you're lying to yourself.

Keira did what she thought was right at the time, the medical people we're trying to help her and did what they thought was the right thing at the time. There is no one to blame in this situation. Whatever Keira thought she would achieve or how she thought she'd feel has prompted her to believe that she's made the wrong choices. That's the thing about hindsight though, it's brilliant but it comes too late.

I spoke to several professionals at the Manchester detransitioners event and they all said the same thing, it’s incredibly hard to work in a inquisitive, non-prescriptive, in depth way at GIDs. There are a number of staff who are ‘true believers’ in gender identity ideology and if you are not one you have two choices, keep your head down and do the best you can or leave. Most people do the former as long as they can manage, then the latter.

I’ve been advised not to have DsD referred because you don’t know who you’ll be assigned to, despite there being a handful of decent, GC sympathetic clinicians still in the job.

Transition is, in some cases, the "razor blade to the arms" cutting and anorexia of this generation of girls. Sadly, this generation has cheerleaders telling them they're doing the right thing

What's very apparent is that the medical professionals who are at the fore of 'gender therapy' have no/little insight or experience of child development, working with/understanding adolescent distress/impact of trauma or standard Safeguarding good practice.
Particularly for girls.

That's aside to their lack of basic knowledge about recognising & responding appropriately to indications of possible abuse, autism, eating disorders etc

I stand by my previous comments, she was an adult when she took testosterone and had surgery. She went to the Tavistock, the Tavistock didn't go to her. Her parents will have had to give their ok too, but so far, no mention of those adult(s).

Stop trying to debate something when you're so uninformed. There IS mention of her parents. Please read what she has written. Her parents split up, her father was very worried and deeply upset after her mastectomy. It's not as though Keira has written reams for gods sake, at least read what it is you're trying refute.

The memorandum of understanding means all the healthcare professionals will have been affirming Keira. Likewise everything she would have seen on the Internet, YouTube, tumblr, mermaids, stonewall, etc.

Victim blaming Keira and her parents in order to shore up the validation of adult men is one of the most selfish aspects of this ideology.

The Tavistock themselves have said that puberty blockers cement gender identity disorder. She was given those as a child, a legal child. Her path was set then. The basis for the judicial review. Please be accurate.

Transition is, in some cases, the "razor blade to the arms" cutting and anorexia of this generation of girls. Sadly, this generation has cheerleaders telling them they're doing the right thing. It's well fucked up.

I blamed professional adults in an earlier post

I dont blame many parents...being told by professionals that medication is the Right thing to Do and that it will solve your childs problems and not being told the ins and outs of everything

Many parents aren’t able to research and are probably so fearful that they will believe the experts...even if the experts are coming out with complete bullshit

Being transgender cannot simply be an inborn condition, or we wouldn’t be seeing stories like these:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/16/transition-caused-more-problems-than-it-solved

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-51193849/i-used-gender-transition-as-a-form-of-escape

Some people develop a cross sex identity after suffering trauma and bereavement, of course transition cannot really solve those issues. It’s a well documented phenomenon yet the forward march of gender identity ideology means it’s not being researched, it’s not being identified and people are transitioning unnecessarily:

Marcus Evans, former governor of the Tavistock talks about it here:

quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/

It won’t be terves that pull down the house of gender cards, it will be detransitioners.
Ironically, if transactivists had listened to terves, there would be far fewer detransitioners and we might never have gotten to this point.

Keira Bell is the tip of the iceberg.

Here’s a recent article by Bailey and Blanchard together - regardless of whether you believe Blanchard’s particular typography or not, it’s clear that gender dysphoria does not present in the same way for all people. Gender Dysphoria is symptom, not a specific condition. That doesn’t mean that everyone should be prevented from transitioning, but having a better understanding of it means it will be easier to discern those for whom transition is unlikely to bring peace:

One problem with the current mainstream narrative regarding gender dysphoria is that it makes no distinctions among apparently very different kinds of persons. For example, Bruce Jenner appeared to be a very masculine man, an Olympic athlete who was married to three different women and had six children with them, before becoming Caitlyn Jenner. In contrast, Jazz Jennings, a natal male, was so feminine that she earned a diagnosis of gender identity disorder at the age of four. She is attracted to males. Jenner and Jennings are so different in their presentation and history that it is surprising to us that anyone thinks they have the same condition. Jenner and Jennings are examples of two very different kinds of gender dysphoria that have been scientifically well studied, and have fundamentally different motivations, clinical presentations, and likely causes.

The failure of so many therapists and activists to acknowledge this distinction is disturbing for at least two reasons. First, it suggests they are either ignorant of relevant scientific evidence or are purposefully ignoring it. Second, failure to make scientifically valid and fundamental distinctions among different kinds of gender dysphoric persons can only prevent progress toward finding the best approach to helping each. Measles, influenza, and strep throat are all associated with fever. But if we had merely lumped them together as “fever,” we would not have effective treatments for them.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Studies on gnhra drugs used for children and adolescents with otherwise healthy bodies isn’t a tangent, it’s the remit of the judicial review.

There are none so blind as to those who refuse to see!

Look, I couldn’t give a rats arse if adults make properly informed decisions regarding transition. I don’t believe it brings the happiness that many transitioners are seeking and it can be very damaging for loved ones (especially wives and children of late transitioners) but I take the JK Rowling point of view, dress however you want, choose your own name, love in the way that suits you as long as it’s consenting and safe.

But tell me a medication is a ‘harmless pause’ and convince my child that it’s the only option of that or suicide and my liberal attitude stops dead. Same with telling me it’s fine to to let rapists self ID into women’s prisons. Trans people exist (although I firmly believe that trans is not one thing) but that’s not a reason for otherwise logical adults to start acting like they’ve been sniffing glue. If someone tells me stuff that is clearly bullshit and might put my children at risk and I am going to research the shit out of your claims.

One of my children is a paediatric oncology patient, another wants to transition. From my fairly unique viewpoint it’s clear that in Britain 2020, children with gender dysphoria are not being treated with the same high standards as children with cancer. And that’s not related to waiting lists (which are way too high for a whole heap of non-fatal chronic conditions, including autism spectrum assessment, gender dysphoria and general adolescent mental health issues).

I’m no big pharma conspiracy theorist or anti vaxxer, ask any oncology parent and 99.99% of them will tell you that big pharma saved our kids lives.

But something has gone badly wrong in paediatric gender medicine, it’s become political, not evidence based.
Trans activists told us that Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD) in teens was made up, despite parents repeatedly saying it’s nothing like what was once called ‘transsexualism’, as has been documented for 60 or so years.
But that new generation of ROGD teenagers are now starting to detransition, because they were never really trans.
If political ideology hadn’t prevented research by people like Littman and Cantor, some of this could be avoided, instead, the mantra is ‘you are trans if you think you are’.
No kid gets chemo on the basis of thinking they might have cancer. Why are we inducing chemical menopause in girls who think they might be boys?

It’s nonsensical, and all fo do with adult transitioners obsession with ‘passing’. They project their difficulties onto kids, imagining that blocking natural puberty would’ve made their own lives better. But look at poor Jazz Jennings - transition complete at 18, with the emotional maturity of a 12/13 year old, has never experienced sexual desire (not even fancying people) and is rapidly developing a binge eating disorder, in front of our very eyes.

Or look at child transitioner, Nikki Tutorials. Looks great on a close cropped screen for make up, but stand Nikki next to an average woman and the woman looks like a character from Honey I Shrunk the Kids.

Childhood transition does not do what trans adults imagine it to do (make you pass) but instead causes a whole heap of other physical issues. One of the Tavistock kids in their study has the bone strength of a geriatric.
You can’t fuck about with a child’s endocrinology and not induce negative consequences.

Paediatric transition is a medical scandal unfolding in real time in front of our eyes.

No, it just went off on a general anti trans tangent

I doubt that.

This is about Safeguarding children & Vulnerable Adults which is a statuatory responsibility.

The state, NHS, schools & social services are required to Safeguard & have a Duty of Care.
Safeguarding is also the responsibility of every adult.

No, it just went off on a general anti trans tangent

Was the tangent the posting of Professor Heneghan's paper which concluded,
"The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice."

& the actual basis for the Judicial Review?

Yes it is, but it went off on a tangent.

I stand by my previous comments, she was an adult when she took testosterone and had surgery. She went to the Tavistock, the Tavistock didn't go to her. Her parents will have had to give their ok too, but so far, no mention of those adult(s).

This is a thread for talking about Keira, and others like her.

If you want to debate you need to bring an argument and ‘well, I’m happy with transition’ is irrelevant to Keira.

Every time. Without fail. As I have said a thousand times it wasnt the arguments put forward by feminists that made me change my mind, it was the utter lack of coherent explanations from the 'other side'.

Yes it is always difficult to sustain a lie when people start producing facts and evidence and you have none.