Keira Bell

you're either trans or you're not, you can't be encouraged to be what you're not.

Tell that to the 76 children all identifying as trans in one school in Brighton - coincidentally the epicentre of trans ideology.

Or perhaps you subscribe to one theory we had here that the pregnant mums had all consumed some contaminated water simultaneously?

Also, if Kiera has already started down the path of being affirmed as a child, with puberty blockers, and not being told time and again of the side effects of the procedures she is expecting in the future, don’t you think this would significantly lower the chance of her desisting as a brand new adult?

After all, if you have focused your whole being on making it to 18 to get those procedures so you can start life as you want it to be and are not being constantly reminded of the health risks, as soon as you get to 18 that is what you are going to do.

No. The process issues that Kiera has pointed out are that changes are needed. That the health risks (mental health as well) need to be very clearly repeated throughout. She has stated she was not informed.

If it also means that much more work is done with mental health before the affirmation process is done, and well before pumping children with puberty blockers, this case will have positive results for the next generation.

big pharma

That was me and I used it as an ironic device to demonstrate I am not anti medicine, in the context of explaining that my youngest child is an oncology patient

So using it to infer I am paranoid is either disingenuous or demonstrates a massive lack in your reading comprehension.

you can't be encouraged to be what you're not.

You can, when you are a child. You can be encouraged to be all sorts of things and try on all sorts of looks and beliefs for size, while you are trying to work out who you really are. All part of growing up.

And Keira Bell, at 16, was a child.

That's why it's so important to watch and wait, and to exercise caution before you take a child at their word about who and what they are.

Which is surely the whole point of this judicial review.

The way I see it oopster, I and the multitude of women who were ‘Tom boys’ of the past are also telling you that the current affirmation path is flawed. many of us have the shared experience of not wanting to go through puberty for reasons that you, as a male bodied person, do not share. A life of periods, having to deal with sexual harassment and discrimination that we’d already had or at least witnessed, fighting the effect of male privilege to name a few.

Who is to say that we, as these girls today being affirmed, would not transition too. That is why perhaps we do know something about what these girls are feeling.

Why don’t you believe that ROGD is happening?

On one hand, you are right- there were plenty of girls in the 70 & 80s who felt this thing now being called gender disphoria. But we also were not led to believe that we could actually change sex to identify out of being women. So we grew into the women we are. Ones that recognise there is a problem, whatever name it is given.

you're either trans or you're not, you can't be encouraged to be what you're not.

So is Kiera trans or not? If it’s as binary as that, what is she then?

I struggle to understand how someone can have so much concern for those who want to transition and yet be so dismissive of the detransitioners who feel that they've mutilated their bodies. One group cannot just be accepted as collateral damage for the other.

It's quite clear to me that what was happening in GICs 20 years ago has almost no bearing on what is happening now. When 35 members of the Tavistock have resigned in protest at the overdiagnosis of children over the last 3 years then I think it's important that we pay attention. I can't see any reason why someone would dismiss such information unless they are pushing an agenda.

Keira was.

Why do you think her experience is less relevant than yours?

I'm not trying to waste anyone's time here, I'm simply putting my experience over and putting my 2 cents in.

I see a mix of people debating here, some being objective in how they putting their points over, and some not. I'm trying as best I can to be objective, to challenge what I see as not being right. When I hear people say "big pharma", that just makes me think they're being paranoid, as the numbers just don't add up for that, i.e. There's no great profit to be made from encouraging people to be trans, and you're either trans or you're not, you can't be encouraged to be what you're not.

greatwave you misunderstand me, that's the thing that people tend to or tended to say about tomboys, that they'll grow out of it, maybe I didn't phrase it as well as I could have.

Without doubt. But I, for one, am not really speaking to oopster.

I for one too, so for two?

Keira Bell is not alone in challenging the legality of NHS Tavistock GIDS treatment protocols:

'Mother sues Tavistock child gender clinic over treatments'
(extract)
"The mother who is bringing the case says she opposes the treatment that doctors at the clinic plan to give her daughter, who has autism and is awaiting assessment for reassignment therapy. She says her daughter is among many children with autism being treated at the clinic. She wants the treatment of all children to stop until the clinic’s practices are reviewed and more is known about the effects of hormone blockers." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mother-sues-tavistock-child-gender-clinic-over-treatments-r9df8m987

'Tavistock clinic: My daughter can’t understand the risk, says mother'
(extract)
The mother whose daughter wants to start taking puberty blockers has “deep concerns” that the clinic allowed her child, who has autism and other mental health problems, to self-identify as transgender and said it had not considered the complexities of the child’s condition.

She wishes to remain anonymous to protect her daughter’s identity and is referred to in a letter setting out her case as Mrs A.

The mother has described her perspective in supporting her daughter through this “distressing experience” in a statement and is seeking support for a crowd-funding appeal to support the legal action.

Her 15-year-old daughter is going through a time of gender confusion. She has agreed that her daughter, referred to in the case as Child B, can join the waiting list for assessment and treatment at the trust’s gender identity development service but said that she had “significant reservations”.

Mrs A said: “I have deep concerns that the clinical approach at Gids [the gender identity development service] means that my daughter will be subjected to an experimental treatment path that is not adequately regulated, where there are insufficient safeguards, where her autism will not be properly accounted for and where no one, let alone my daughter, understands the risks and therefore cannot ensure informed consent is obtained.” (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tavistock-clinic-my-daughter-cant-understand-the-risk-says-mother-jr59vz0ck

Agree, Datun.

I like it when we get visitors, it gives us a chance to show the readers that a) we aren’t a hate group and b) we do actually know what we are talking about.

We do seem to be getting an increasing number of late, mind you.

Just over a year ago, senior NHS staff went public with their whistle blown concerns:

Times
'Governor quits ‘blinkered’ Tavistock clinic'
(extract)
A governor of the NHS trust that runs England’s only gender clinic for children has resigned in protest at its “blinkered” and “one-sided” response to doctors who had raised the alarm about “woefully inadequate” care.

Marcus Evans, a consultant psychotherapist at the Tavistock and Portman trust with three decades’ experience, told The Sunday Times that the trust had said things that were “not true”, had created a “climate of fear” and was trying to “dismiss or undermine” concerns raised by its own clinicians.

“I am sad to be ending my proud 34-year association with the trust,” Evans wrote in his resignation letter. “However, I do not have confidence that these serious issues . . . are going to be sufficiently addressed and dealt with in a thorough, thoughtful and balanced way.”

Twenty-five other clinicians at the trust have signed a letter protesting against how it had handled the concerns of medical staff. The 25 said the attitude of managers was “not acceptable”.

In a report leaked to this newspaper last week, some staff at the Tavistock’s gender identity development service (Gids) said it was exposing young patients to “long-term damage” because of its “inability to stand up to the pressure” from “highly politicised” campaigners and families demanding fast-track gender transition." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/governor-quits-blinkered-tavistock-clinic-82db7wzq8?shareToken=8e6b7665a9c252f96c290b6dc0d0d87e

I get the impression oopster is just here to waste our time repeating ourselves endlessly.

Without doubt. But I, for one, am not really speaking to oopster.

Its telling when adults want to disrupt consideration & discussion of a potential serious Safeguarding failure in an NHS paediatric service.

I've told you this at least twice.

I'm sure I've said the same thing to oopster multiple times as well. I get the impression oopster is just here to waste our time repeating ourselves endlessly.

Oopster, why do you think you know better than Keira does what her own experience was?

Yes she was 16 when she first received treatment which would have been counselling, before any medical treatment would have been considered

She had three 1 hour sessions. I've told you this at least twice.

In England a person is considered a child until their 18th birthday.

Girls who were more into rough and tumble, playing in the mud we're seen as "tomboys", and they'll grow out of it eventually,

I don't really understand this, what makes you think they 'grew out of it'. ? They had their careers in STEM, whilst juggling motherhood and only wearing a dress the day they got married.

But now they are old and their experiences irrelevant apparently, except they are not because they have the frigging t-shirt and know that one day the majority will be happy just the way they are.

This idea that us women were prancing around in dresses and still are or somehow suppressed our inner true identity is bizarre. I see no progression at all.

You're still not paying attention oopster. The case is about whether CHILDREN are able to consent to treatment which is likely to leave them infertile and with no sexual function. It's about whether they can actually give informed consent about treatment which will affect these aspects of their lives when they do not have a full understanding about what that means - because they are CHILDREN.

As reported at the weekend

"Ms Bell's legal team will argue the centre's approach was unlawful because

1. children could not give informed consent for this kind of treatment and

2. the potential risks of treatment were not adequately explained"

Oldcrone, I know the case is about that, but remember, she was 18 when she started testosterone, she was legally an adult. She'd taken blockers at 16 or 17? If she'd decided to stop taking them then her puberty that had been paused by them would reasert itself.

It was her choice, she was free to choose. I see so many things online that we should have the freedom to choose what we do with our bodies, the big one being with regards to abortion rights. At 16 you can legally consent to sex, you can join the army, at 17 you can legally drive, at 18 you can drink, smoke, get married, but you're saying that you're not old enough to consent to transition? I'd be the first one telling her to make sure that she's doing the right thing for her where transition is concerned, and to hold off if she has any doubts, but at the end of the day the decision is upto the individual doing it. Yes she was 16 when she first received treatment which would have been counselling, before any medical treatment would have been considered.

I couldn't even get painkillers for a condition I've had for 40 years as my GP says doctors aren't so willing to hand out "powerfull addictive meditions" nowadays

Over the past 40 years a lot of new evidence has been established. Medicine has also become less patriarchal - although there is still a heck of a long way to go on that one - as this very topic illustrates.

So to take your example of pain; 40 years ago people were routinely prescribed co-proxamol for chronic pain, which was dispensed in large quantities. As evidence emerged about its limited effectiveness and concerns over its use in suicides it became less widely used and was eventually withdrawn. Best practice now is for clinicians and patients to work in partnership, to balance the benefits of medication against side effects in a way that works best for the individual patient. Non-pharmacological interventions such as physio and exercise are also encouraged, because these often have better long term outcomes.

But there is no best practice for ROGD based upon comprehensive research because the trials haven't been done on any scale and the follow up from centres like the Tavistock have been woeful.

Mermaids preferred pathways aren't evidence. Anecdata isn't evidence.

Children and their families can't work in partnership with a team of clinicians if the service funnels them onto a treatment pathway as soon as they say the magic words. And they can't consent to treatment if they are not able to comprehend - as in emotionally understand - the consequences.