Keira Bell

Oldcrone, I starts dating questioning my gender identity in the mid 80's, and I was too scared to tell anyone till 1997. I'd gone through years of trying to figure out why, I went through depression, suicidal thoughts, trying to "man up", but in the end I came out to a friend after a drunken night out with them.

At the end of the day, Keira was an adult when she made her decisions. She went to the clinics, she could have paused or stopped at any point, now, she wants someone to blame for her choices. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but that's just the way it is. And she had 3 one hour appointments before going onto puberty blockers? That would would probably been over 18 months though. Gender identity services are seriously underfunded and don't have enough trained staff to offer more regular frequent appointments. Any other medical treatment that received this government backing and there'd be a national scandal.

Why are there more children presenting with gender identity issues? Because there's more knowledge now, were more open. Kids come out in school now as LGBT whereas in my day (and now I feel old), you we're too scared to come out and because of things like section 28, you couldn't talk to a teacher about it. Two of my friends from school are gay and I never knew at the time. If things had been more open at the time, we could have all possibly supported each other.

I worry that the absolute number of those who ‘really need’ to transition will stay much as it was when there was proper gatekeeping.

Meanwhile, there could be hundreds to thousands of people who will come to regret it - the ones who would previously have been screened out, or never persisted past puberty.

No one would have prescribed anything or performed any surgery unless they were absolutely convinced that the patient was 100% certain that it was the right thing to do, and there's no surgery at all till the patient is a legal adult able to give consent.

How long ago was your experience with gender clinics? It's not like it was 10 or 20 years ago.

Not so long ago there were no transgender children, but now they're in almost every school. 10 years ago I'd never heard of a gender identity, now we're all supposed to have one and children are being taught in school that they should with the inevitable consequence that huge numbers of them get totally confused and end up seeking treatment to cure them of a non-illness. The clinics are just finding a way to deal with far greater numbers of children than they ever expected to have to deal with.

Oopster she had three, one hour appointments before being prescribed puberty blockers. Drugs which the Tavistock themselves describe as cementing gender dysphoria. Her path was mapped out after 3 hours. Nearly 100% of children, many as young as 11, go on to cross sex hormones if they are prescribed puberty blockers

Most people have no idea that this is going on. Keira Bell will have to live with the consequences of the decisions made by medical professionals she trusted. Her bravery in bringing this to public scrutiny and judicial review is admirable. Especially since there are so many people who seem determined to defend this seriously flawed treatment of young girls.

Oopster she had three, one hour appointments before being prescribed puberty blockers. Drugs which the Tavistock themselves describe as cementing gender dysphoria. Her path was mapped out after 3 hours.

Nearly 100% of children, many as young as 11, go on to cross sex hormones if they are prescribed puberty blockers.

No one would have prescribed anything or performed any surgery unless they were absolutely convinced that the patient was 100% certain that it was the right thing to do,

They were 100% wrong though, weren't they.

It's much more complex than that. Please read me previous comment which I've just posted.

They didn't immediately do anything. I've not been through Tavistock but I have. Web through charring cross when waiting times weren't as long, and believe me, they take they're bloody time with everything. Appointments with a minimum of 5 months between was the norm. No one would have prescribed anything or performed any surgery unless they were absolutely convinced that the patient was 100% certain that it was the right thing to do, and there's no surgery at all till the patient is a legal adult able to give consent.

A child or young person insists that they are or should be the opposite sex, and shows signs of distress. Since people can't change sex, the obvious treatment for this is for them to have counselling to help them to accept their healthy body as it is. Instead of this, they are being given hormone blockers and opposite sex hormones and having their bodies mutilated in an attempt to make them look like the opposite sex.

Why are doctors doing this?

Bloody hell, puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, and surgery are not like taking an aspirin for a headache! Receiving therapy alongside watchful waiting to ease dysphoric symptoms until after puberty is maybe like treating a headache with aspirin and waiting until it passes. But what's happening now is more like someone going to the doctor with a headache and insisting the headache is actaully caused by an alien brain implant, immediately being approved for brain surgery to remove it, and then everyone pretending that they actually found something!

Like treating a headache indeed, what utter shit. They removed both her breasts because she said she was actually somehow literally male. They actually amputated healthy body parts because a child made a claim about something that's impossible. What the fuck is wrong with people?!

Other times the external intervention carried out by gender services solves nothing at all. It may even create a whole different set of health issues.

As with Keira Bell.

Rufflecrow, you're right, but being trans isn't simply feeling feminine or masculine, it's much more, and for some, they need the medical help that gid's can offer. For some that may just be talking therapies, but for others it's hormones and surgeries. When you have a headache, chances are it will pass given enough time, but most of us will take relevant painkillers. The same is true with gender identity issues. Sometimes you can resolve them yourself, other times you need that external intervention.

oh oopster, you don't need a clinic to be feminine or masculine! Just look at Mick Jagger in his younger days. Pretty as a picture.

And if someone is having feelings of wanting to harm or mutilate a perfectly healthy body - that's why we have mental health services.

And the drug used to ‘block puberty’ actually seem to cause depression and suicidal ideation, in natal females, at least.

They will pull statistics demonstrating that young people did suicide as a result of unresolvable body

The Tavistock themselves have said it's 'extremely rare'. I think it's one in 10 years, possibly 2?

I don’t think the Tavistock will win.

Reposting this from the other thread.

This NHS website provides an excellent overview on what ‘Competent minors’ can and cannot consent to/refuse consent for.

TLDR: day to day medical, surgical and dental, up to them, anything unusual or life threatening, not up to them, but decided by a judge.

www.uhs.nhs.uk/HealthProfessionals/Clinical-law-updates/Children-refusing-treatment.aspx

Quote:
‘ The first and paramount consideration (of the court) is the wellbeing, welfare or interests (of the minor) and I regard it as self-evident that this involves giving them the maximum degree of decision-making which is prudent. Prudence does not involve avoiding all risk, but it does involve avoiding risks which, if they eventuate, may have irreparable consequence or which are disproportionate to the benefits which would accrue from taking them ’.’

Italics are mine.
———
This is what I believe the judicial review will hinge on, are the irreparable effects of GNRH analogues on healthy teenage bodies less harmful than the alternative, which is watchful waiting until adulthood?

GIDS will need to provide evidence that the consequences of not blocking puberty are worse than the consequences of taking triptolerin.
If they cannot do that, then a competent minor cannot consent to the treatment and a judge will have to decide on a case by case basis.

I do not believe the Tavistock has that evidence, because it doesn’t exist.

The anti trans brigade will use this as an excuse to prevent trans people getting the help they need, when if anything, this just goes to show that more funding is needed in the sector to allow more counselling sessions. There are very few gender identity clinics in the uk, and waiting lists and times for those are scandalously high. More funding, will be able to ensure more trained professionals to help those find the right answers with regards to their gender identity issues.

YouGo I think Tavistock will win on this occasion.

I imagine that they will be able to demonstrate that they did 'due diligence', as it were.

Obviously none of us know for sure whether in this case, she felt the alternative was suicide. And how many cases of 'success' Tavistock can cite, in mitigation.

They will be able to demonstrate that they adhered to the accepted standards of the time. They will pull statistics demonstrating that young people did suicide as a result of unresolvable body dysmorphia. They will be able to demonstrate the importance on blocking sex-specific puberty for the unsure, needing 'time', via hormone blockers. 16 for a girl is late.

They will demonstrate that they asked 'the right questions', and her answers were in line with someone sure of their gender dysmorphia. Which were not challenged at the time.

I, I have to say, am strongly opposed to self-ID. I am completely okay with complete transition.

I am conflicted about the situation where someone really, really wants to transition; needs to do it pre-complete puberty, whose '3 x one hour sessions' might be 'several sessions' (semantics, I know), but can demonstrate a strong discomfort regarding gender from 14, possibly earlier (interview).

Who can then cry 'foul'! Once their 'need' is facilitated, but 7 years later.

Do and can we dismiss, or discredit the views of any passionate 16 year old as being invalid, even if the process of validating their belief is, to many's eyes, drastic?

Maybe I should be more open to self ID? So people can 'explore' their gender perception without choosing mastectomies (note : not 'amputation')- but not in my change room, women's refuge, prison.

But a different, though highly related subject.

Another example of “sacred caste” often spoken about in here
Safeguarding doesn’t apply when you say the word gender.

buttmonki thanks for yours. Well written, well considered.

Have just seen the interview on the BBC. Blockers and a double mastectomy. Hope she wins her case.

It was the job of adults to say no to her and no one did.
It’s the complete opposite of any other safeguarding situation you can think of

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8061949/Woman-claims-rushed-taking-experimental-puberty-blocking-drugs.html?ito=native_share_article-masthead

If anyone has a minute to vote or post on the AIBU thread about Keira I would be very grateful.

The opening post is goady and inaccurate but we’ve managed to pull the discussion on track.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3836481-AIBU-about-transgender-person-suing-NHS-for-allowing-her-to-transition

something I am sure at the height of my misery as a bullied ostracised teenager I would have embraced

Don’t forget that not only does transitioning give you the gender you feel you want it also comes with ‘membership of a club’, friends online and instant coolness.

Walking away from a whole community is a very hard thing to do, especially when you feel you don’t fit into your own community.

Meanwhile we have people like Fiona Robertson, SNP Equalities convener saying crap like this:

Remember how feminists fought for years to ensure under-18s the right to be prescribed the Pill without informing parents because patient confidentiality is crucial?

If you think they're not coming for this right next if we allow this principle to be undermined, you're naive.

twitter.com/FionaSnp/status/1234087478916714496?s=19

I've seen this argument a few times, that this is all designed to make sure that Gillick competence is removed in all situations. No recognition whatsoever that preventing pregnancy has rather less of a whole of life impact than a double mastectomy and infertility.