The Composition and Demographics of the Growing Trans Population

but as it stands the equality act allows for trans women except in rare cases to access those spaces too. That's just the law

It's not. The only males who identify as trans who would even be considered to have a legal right to ask for access to female-only provisions are those in possession of a GRC.

For all others, the comparator for discrimination claims are other males whose legal sex remains male. If it's legal to exclude a man who doesn't identify as trans, it's legal to exclude a man who does identify as trans as a blanket policy. Before excluding males whose legal sex is female however (ie GRC-holders), the provider must consider whether such exclusion is justified.

And under a total of six sex-based exemptions allowing for a great number of female-only legal set asides, the Eqality Act states that yes, even GRC-holders can be excluded from opposite sex facilities, services and provisions.

Furthermore, and just for your information, the Government Equality Office has confirmed in correspondence, that case-by-case justification for exclusion refers to the fact that each use case that is to be offered on a single-sex basis must be justified as legitimate and proportionate not each exclusion of an individual user.

So, to recap: the law allows for the exclusion of all males, regardless of identity, from all female-only legal set asides. Including GRC-holders. As a matter of course, and regularly as well as frequently, not just in rare cases.

Are you sure you're not mistaking policy for the law?

@fieldofgreycorn

You're right about there being a lot of gender critical people on the feminist boards. That isn't a well kept secret. I wouldn't be confident enough to make a sweeping statement that they are all feminists though.

I was referring to diagnosed transsexual under 18's. To think that a condition of this nature can't present and be treated until adulthood is for me a bit short sighted. But, that's just my opinion, you'd have to defer to the Tavistock and put that suggestion of just leaving them to it to them. A bit cruel and unusual if you ask me but, maybe you've a point.

Old Crone

That's a fair assertion about evidence and facts. You could have a positive effect on the level of debate with that attitude. More of it please!

When you say quite a number of trans people are violent criminals how do you define quite a number.

If we take circa 0.9% of the population may be trans then we could be suggesting a number around 650000. I think that is a bit high to be fair. The prison figures suggested there were around 130 trans people in jail. At the time they only counted people on a significant sentence which was likely to miss out short term prisoners doing time for socio economically driven crime. Of course, significant sentences are generally only handed to violent/sexually motivated criminals. So it is likely there were more trans prisoners than actually counted and it is also possible that the study I'm referring to had some inherent design flaws which could easily have led to a misrepresentation of the true statistics either way.

But at what proportion of a 650,000 population would you describe as quite a number to infer that trans people have more than their fair share of violent criminals? Perceptions fascinate me. I accept trans people seem to offend at a higher rate than women but not anywhere near the prevelance of male (non trans) offenders.

I can't say anything more really, like much of the information presented in the gender debate it was anecdotal

On this side of the debate many of us prefer facts and stats.

I wasn't there and formed an opinion based on something I was told.

I'd want more evidence before repeating something like that.

an awful lot of trans people or people perceived to be trans using the tube

An awful lot?

Like there is an awful lot of gender critical feminists on mumsnet?

I don't think you are right to infer that 80% of diagnosed transsexuals would simply desist and fade away if they weren't treated.

I wasn't talking about diagnosed (adult) transsexuals. I was replying to your post about children. 80% of children who are confused about their gender desist once they've gone through puberty.

TL;DR lots of former transvestites are coming out as trans women.

Yeah. We know.

I can't say anything more really, like much of the information presented in the gender debate it was anecdotal, I wasn't there and formed an opinion based on something I was told. I'm willing to accept there are likely going to be two very different sides to that story. That's not unusual is it?

BickeringBrattle thanks for the information about MPD. I'll have to read up about that.

I don't think you are right to infer that 80% of diagnosed transsexuals would simply desist and fade away if they weren't treated. I suspect it may be more accurate to say that 80% of referrals don't get diagnosed and are found out to have a different issue. Going to a GIC is as much about working out what you aren't as it is in trying to diagnose what you are. I guess we are just unlikely to agree on this.

As for the baying mob in Brighton I thought the police actions were consistent with one of the attendees being a bit more of a problem

Can you say some more about that? It's not something I've seen reported?

I don't doubt there are issues with self ID. Women absolutely deserve their own spaces too but as it stands the equality act allows for trans women except in rare cases to access those spaces too. That's just the law, what I think about it doesn't really matter. However, what I will say is that Victoria station in London has a great gender neutral single stall toilet. This is a far nicer experience than stood crossing your legs in the queue for the ladies.

That the same child went through transition as an adult meant all that horrible stuff just needn't have happened at all. I'd like to think that could be avoided if it all possible.

And what about the 80% who would desist if left untreated? Are they just collateral damage?

I'm very knowledgeable about the current treatment pathway both medical and surgical and do know that the NHS is certainly not rushing anyone through.

I have no doubt that like me you know a lot about the current pathway. I do wonder however, if this is a) up to date and b) based on policy knowledge and/or practice?

I ask this because too many parents and detransitioners are reporting that they are being rushed through to medical transition to dismiss their experiences as mere anecdote. At which point would you consider that policies may not be followed? Or that new policies have been put in place? Or even that your definition of rushing through or what constitutes treatment in this context may not be the same?

I ask this out of genuine interest to find out what informs your thinking on this and how you came to your conclusion.

Yes justathought it's nearly always bad news when trans people are in the media if they're male. There is one prominent transwoman who seems to be doing very well in their scientific career who seems a nice enough human being, and who i'd like to praise here, but i suspect i'm not allowed to say who that is as it's 'outing'.

Wasn't Prof Freedmans door found not to be the result of trans activists? I think she said as much herself although she wasn't quite as loud with that bit of the story.

I understand that there are protests at the meetings but, there is a right to peaceful protest in the UK.

Do you think this is acceptable?

Rosa Freedman: Professor's door 'covered in urine' after gender law debate

Old crone,

I am referring to the need of the older transitioner to go through operations like FFS etc... to help them blend in more successfully.

When I say denying a child treatment I think of a child being denied help and then going into a downward spiral in an effort to make it all go away due to unsupportive parents. That the same child went through transition as an adult meant all that horrible stuff just needn't have happened at all. I'd like to think that could be avoided if it all possible.

Exactly @stillathing

I don't think Miranda Yardley would like me very much if I'm honest but seeing as she is highly unlikely to darken my door I won't worry too much about her. As for the baying mob in Brighton I thought the police actions were consistent with one of the attendees being a bit more of a problem. I guess perception driven by confirmation bias is always going to prevent the two of us reachin agreement on that particular point. Stranger things have happened though.