The Composition and Demographics of the Growing Trans Population

(off the back of a smokes packet)

You can do a bit better than that statsgeek1

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/number-of-british-people-seeking-to-change-their-gender-soars-a7130006.html

www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2866

I hadn't heard that! That is good news. Do you have a link to the correspondence?

It was mentioned in the women's services report by Women and Girls in Scotland. I'll go see if I can find it, allmywhat.

@Charleyparley

Our views on the pathway for trans children clearly differ. I respect your view but I don't agree with it. I still believe that the numbers are minuscule, 99.98% of under 18's in the UK do not present with symptoms associated with GD. Of those that do, it is often repeated on here that 80% of that 0.02% don't get diagnosed and effectively desist. So we are then left with a figure that is likely to be in the hundreds who go to a puberty blocker and eventually cross sex hormones. I believe to deny that few hundred distressed children half a chance at a life un blighted by societies discomfort with trams people is both cruel and unusual. That said, I understand and respect your position too but that is a long way from agreeing with it.

Do you have a link to there being 1500 trans women in prison in the UK? That's quite a jump from the figures I had heard previously. I'm not casting a doubt just interested to see a source.

LMGTFY
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/

One in 50 male offenders in prisons are self-identifying as transgender, according to a survey by the official jail watchdog, amid concerns inmates may be attempting to secure extra perks.

The figure, the first by the watchdog, suggests there are up to 1,500 transgender inmates among the 90,000 prisoners in England and Wales, more than ten times previous estimates, and at least four times the number in the general population.

I'm a little surprised that you are unable to do your own simple searches for information on the internet.

Can you point me to the bit of the EA to say the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' refers only to those in possession of a GRC.

This is not what I am saying, please do not infer something that isn't there.

When discussing whether a person has the right to access opposite-sex provisions, the relevant protected characteristic is sex not gender reassignment. That's why out of all the males who identify as trans, only those with a GRC must be considered for inclusion.

What you are presenting here as the law, is called Stonewall law by us on the forefront of this debate. It's the law Stonewall is advocating for and it's the way Stonewall has been misrepresenting the law to organisations, but it isn't the actual law.

HTH

Do you have a link to there being 1500 trans women in prison in the UK?

Did it occur to you to use a search engine before asking?

I typed "1500 trans women in prison in the UK" into an anonymised google search and six of the first seven links that came up were news stories about the relevant survey.

Not handy no. If no one else posts it I'll try to dig it out later. It definitely was said by someone high up in the Prisons Service.

Unlike the affirmation model

Which also frequently ignores or glosses over comorbid mental health issues.

Do you have a link to there being 1500 trans women in prison in the UK? That's quite a jump from the figures I had heard previously. I'm not casting a doubt just interested to see a source.

Not seeing you engage with the fact that the Chief of Prisons said that 1 in 50 male prisoners are claiming to be trans?

I was referring to diagnosed transsexual under 18's.

A transsexual is someone who has medically transitioned, that is someone who has sought to alter their body through hormones and/or surgery. You don't diagnose a child as transsexual. You diagnose a child with gender dysphoria and such a child may medically transition to become a transsexual. Preferably in adulthood. Early medical transition is a mechanism that allows most male children who identify as trans to pass better in adulthood. Because as you pointed out earlier, testosterone is such a potent drug, females who identify as trans can achieve a convincing presentation as male in adulthood. Medicalising them in childhood is therefore unnecessary, especially since this is harmful to them.

To think that a condition of this nature can't present and be treated until adulthood is for me a bit short sighted.

We are not suggesting that children cannot present with gender dysphoria. They can. We are in this debate however distinguishing between children who present typically, that is before puberty and those who present long after puberty. Gender dysphoria in homosexual transsexuals presents almost uniformly in the same way and by the same time in childhood before puberty. The largest number of referals are now for children however who present atypically post puberty, and most of them not with longterm distress or a longterm history of gender-non-comformity.

But, that's just my opinion, you'd have to defer to the Tavistock and put that suggestion of just leaving them to it to them. A bit cruel and unusual if you ask me but, maybe you've a point.

This is disingenuous. Watchful Waiting does not equate to leaving them to it and doing nothing. It is a treatment protocol that seeks to alleviate distress through a number of techniques, including psychological counselling.

Unlike the affirmation model, this approach simply holds the door open for desistance without having to undo a medical transition while at the same time ensuring that when these patients do wish to transition they can do so at a later date in adulthood.

I think this was her most pertinent comment in that post:

The prison figures suggested there were around 130 trans people in jail.

You are out by an order of magnitude. It's approximately 1500 transwomen in men's prisons. No one knows how many more might be in women's prisons already.

Allmywhat

That didn't take long, I am a bit surprised. I hope it made you feel better though.

Unfortunately, the legislation says what it says not what you want it say.

It doesn't actually say anything about admitting males to female spaces. The law works on the principle of liberty and fairness in all cases, but exemptions can be used to protect people with all the protected characteristics, not just women or trans people.

The males without a GRC don't have a special legal right, any more than other males, to be admitted to single sex female spaces. Semantics.

@Charley

Can you point me to the bit of the EA to say the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' refers only to those in possession of a GRC. You would be correct to state only those with a GRC would be able to use a woman as a comparator for the purposes of sex discrimination.

As I understand it, the excemptions can be applied in a very limited number of cases where the action would be deemed proportionate to achieve a legitimate aim.

Note, I am no saying whether I agree or disagree with it just what it says. What do s likely to be required to challenge it is that a trans woman who has been subjected to say domestic violence or sexual assault be denied service at a refuge.

Unfortunately, the legislation says what it says not what you want it say.

Indeed, OldCrone

Labour even admitted their trans inclusive AWS policy was "ahead of the law".

"Ahead of the law" is also known as "breaking the law". We should abide by the laws which are in place, not the ones we want to be in place, or even those we expect to be passed soon.

the Government Equality Office has confirmed in correspondence, that case-by-case justification for exclusion refers to the fact that each use case that is to be offered on a single-sex basis must be justified as legitimate and proportionate not each exclusion of an individual user.

I hadn't heard that! That is good news. Do you have a link to the correspondence?

TL;DR lots of former transvestites are coming out as trans women.

What do you see as the difference?

Are you sure you're not mistaking policy for the law?

It's a common mistake after all. Labour even admitted their trans inclusive AWS policy was "ahead of the law".

When you say quite a number of trans people are violent criminals how do you define quite a number.

Did you post this on the wrong thread? Nobody has said that on this thread.

If we take circa 0.9% of the population may be trans then we could be suggesting a number around 650000.

650,000 (or thereabouts) was the official figure submitted by Gendered Intelligence to the Maria Miller Trans Inquiry in 2015. AFAIK it is based on research that 1% of the population is under the trans umbrella.

I was referring to diagnosed transsexual under 18's. To think that a condition of this nature can't present and be treated until adulthood is for me a bit short sighted.

I was replying to a post where you said:
I haven't made any claims about who is or is not likely to persist into adulthood. I do know though that forcing a child away from treatment can lead to all sorts of negative consequences.

We were talking about children. I said that it is unethical to give children who present with gender dysphoria drugs to prevent puberty, because 80% will desist after puberty if left to develop normally. On your own admission nobody knows which children fall into the 80% and which are the 20% who will persist.

If you treat them all, for every child who will persist whether treated or not, you are treating 4 children for a condition which will disappear on its own given time.

The prison figures suggested there were around 130 trans people in jail.

You are out by an order of magnitude. It's approximately 1500 transwomen in men's prisons. No one knows how many more might be in women's prisons already.

That's a fair assertion about evidence and facts. You could have a positive effect on the level of debate with that attitude. More of it please!

I recognise that very little is to be expected from someone with your level of analytical capabilities who has labelled himself "statsgeek" but I think it's fair to expect better than this. Don't be condescending - it's a very, very bad look on you.