The Composition and Demographics of the Growing Trans Population

Dockie

I think of that view that way because 18 appears to have a significance in the UK and to me it suggests that it needs a threshold because being trans and even more seeking treatment is something that is bad and not for exposure to under 18's

I can say with confidence that it is definitely related to mental health, I couldn't describe it any other way which I don't see as a weakness. I think there is a danger with removing it as a mental health condition in that the psychotherapy is hugely important in coming to terms with it and in helping to manage our expectations.

It has been interesting to get your perspective statsgeek1, even if we don't agree about some things.

it is not essential as far as I am aware for the donor site to be genitalia. Hopefully that Clarifies my opinion.

Clear as mud.

Anyway, it's been good to chat even though we're unlikely to agree on much but, I've a bed to go to but I'll pop back from time to time I'm sure you'll be pleased. Take care.

As for help being limited to the psychological help until adulthood I don't subscribe to that view, it leaves me with a feeling that it's something to be ashamed of.

Do you mean because it implies a psychological cause of gender dysphoria, and that sounds like saying it's a mental illness, which feels more negative than a 'born in the wrong body' narrative? (Sorry if I misunderstood.)

I have read that view elsewhere and found it frustrating because it seems to arise from a view of mental ill health as a weakness, something to be ashamed of (which if you think about it is itself insulting, to people with depression, bipolar and so on).

For me, saying something might have a cause related to the mind is no more insulting than saying it has a cause related to the digestive system. It's still a problem that the person deserves to have help with, it can still be crippling and intractable, not their choice at all, and absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

I'll spell it out a bit more clearly for you stats since you appear to have difficulty understanding my posts.

I was talking about children who have been given puberty blockers early in puberty followed by cross sex hormones followed by surgery. Their genitalia are those of a child.

There appears to be some evidence that because they haven't reached sexual maturity, they do not experience normal sexual function which normally develops during puberty. Because they never go through puberty, they will never reach sexual maturity.

I'm not referring to people who went through a normal puberty and transitioned as adults, which I assume is the case for you.

Not at all, I think it will help them long term in avoiding the stare of discomfort and mistrust that can manifest itself on the face of a few folk without them realizing it. it is not essential as far as I am aware for the donor site to be genitalia. Hopefully that Clarifies my opinion.

You're right, but I was commenting on general sexual feeling in the post op transsexual as such they would not in general in the UK be under 18. But, if you're advocating restricting comment to only that which you've personally experienced I am surprised you are here advocating what is best for children with GD. Perhaps I shouldn't be.

As for help being limited to the psychological help until adulthood I don't subscribe to that view, it leaves me with a feeling that it's something to be ashamed of.

What on earth has being ashamed got to do with preventing children from having irreversible treatment before they are fully able to understand all the consequences of that treatment?

Again though I do feel surgery should not be performed until maturation of the donor site is complete.

Puberty blockers early in puberty followed by cross sex hormones = no puberty = no maturation of the sexual organs.

So do you now agree that giving children puberty blockers is unethical?

rogdmum

I agree, I can not begin to understand that rise really. I hope it's not a reflection on how they see the role of women in the world. I thought humans in our part of the world were turning a corner in that respect.

I suppose the only way is to explore it with them, ask, listen and offer an open mind.

You're right in your assertion with regards to me. I am of a few opinions but you won't catch me making any demands, I've no requirement for validation and feel I have enough rights as things stand. Good luck going forward whatever happens they're your child and seeing them unhappy must be heart breaking.

I am always surprised at the amount of people who believe we lose all sexual sensation and function.

If you didn't have puberty blockers early in puberty followed by cross sex hormones (so never going through puberty), you're not really qualified to comment on the experience of people who did.

Old Crone and Dockie

I'll reply in one as the posts are linked

Firstly I think Dockie you make a lot of sense in your post. Sexuality can be a significant driver in your identity. My only counter would be that for the persistent dysphoria sufferer the development of sexual organs and their associated physiological responses can lead to an increase in the discomfort. At times to the point of self harm.

I am broadly in agreement with the GC position that doesn't want to lower the age at which surgery can take place. I do not believe a an immature anatomy is suited to the best outcomes. However, I am always surprised at the amount of people who believe we lose all sexual sensation and function. I wouldn't be daft enough to think what I experience is the same as a genetic woman (apart from him rolling over and falling to sleep afterwards) but it is certainly not devoid of a wonderful sensation. I expect some do but I have no real idea of the prevalence of that but it certainly isn't universal.

As for help being limited to the psychological help until adulthood I don't subscribe to that view, it leaves me with a feeling that it's something to be ashamed of. Again though I do feel surgery should not be performed until maturation of the donor site is complete.

stats from reading your posts it sounds as though you are MtF (TS)? If so I’d argue your experience is probably very different from the new cohort of teen girls who are being referred to the Tavi. Many of these girls are autistic and can be obsessional over ideas and don’t feel as though they fit in as girls. Others have suffered trauma or have other co-morbidities. It’s not necessarily that they feel they are boys, more that being seen as a boy feels like a better option for them and this is reinforced by social media and then validated by trusted adults around them (school, parents etc). All of this can have a very strong psychological effect on a teen girl who is just trying to fit in.

We need to understand far more about why there has been this surge (and there will be an awful lot more out there who do not get referred to the Tavi), taking a big step back until we do know.

by 16 for many who are persistent in their dysphoria the damage is done and is likely to rely on surgery later in life to sort it out.

Once again you're posting bizarre statements. What do you mean by surgery to sort it out? Do you think that children who go on puberty blockers actually change sex? If men are going to have genital surgery to make their genitalia resemble that of a woman, it works better on a mature adult penis than a child size one. This is well known from the experiences of two people whose stories have been made public and who have been through this process in their late teens following puberty blockers as young teenagers.

And there is no benefit to blocking puberty in girls, because female hormones don't have the same irreversible effects which will make transition to look like the opposite sex more difficult. They'll still get the osteoporosis and loss of IQ and all the other negative effects though.

I do appreciate that for most the dysphoria feelings go or never even appear but for the small cohort for whom they remain in a persistent and distressing fashion I support them getting help.

But that help should be purely psychological help until they are adults.

Being transsexual generally doesn't revolve around any sexual feelings.

But do you think it's appropriate to remove all potential for sexual feelings from children, before they even understand what that means?

it's just that by 16 for many who are persistent in their dysphoria the damage is done and is likely to rely on surgery later in life to sort it out

It's not just 'damage' that's done in that time though - as I understand it there's also the maturing of the brain through puberty that would have happened and that is a loss in itself if it doesn't happen.

Being transsexual generally doesn't revolve around any sexual feelings. I personally had feelings that I wanted things to be different long before I developed sexual desires.

I may be wrong but I took what justathought was saying to mean that a significant relevant part of maturing and forming one's identity can be related to sexual feelings arriving, and making decisions before that has happened isn't necessarily a good thing.

Isn't there a risk that decisions might be expected from a young teen on medical treatment that will make sex difficult, before that teenager has grown old enough to even realise what it is that they will be missing out on?

It's clearly not an easy thing to deal with but it seems to me that political theorising from activists shouldn't have any place in decisions about children's medical treatment. By that I mean things like them calling intensive psychological help to reduce dysphoria conversion therapy and accusing people who do it of transphobia.

I do feel very strongly for anyone with crippling dysphoria and I wish there were simple ways to deal with it. Of all the possible treatments, though, medical transition seems like the one it's rational to keep as an absolute last resort, because of the risk of it actually harming a greater percentage of gender dysphoric people (those who will end up being helped by waiting for puberty to finish) than it helps.

I'm not sure about all these negatives. I and I'm guessing many others have one medication. It's a relatively low dose of estrogen to reduce the risk of things like osteoporosis. I function like any other adult which I certainly didn't before I fact I barely functioned at all at times and I visit the Gp to have my bloods done infrequently. As such I wouldn't class myself as a life long patient anymore than I would anyone else requiring a common medication.

Now, I only know around only 10 people in the same position as me in person. All report being satisfied and having a better quality of life than before. Yes there are difficulties post surgery and some things to get used to and be careful of but in the main many of us go on to lead standard and fulfilling lives. Maybe we all just got lucky but, I'm not convinced that is a realistic assertion.

However, if you are willing to disregard our lived experience then you are denying yourself some valuable information that could help you to understand us and why we are willing to undergo surgical procedures to make our lives ultimately more comfortable. But, that's your loss, it's a shame.

What numbers would those be that suggest it isn't a satisfying treatment.

This is another case where you would be best off to do your own research. Google is your friend. Look at outcomes for sex reassignment, or even just "does sex reassignment work". You should come up with lots of articles that will give you good links to the research and explain it better than I can do here.

But the long and short is that the research does not support that the outcomes are better than for people who do not transition, it does suggest that underlying problems aren't addressed, and it certainly doesn't point to it being a treatment path that is clearly a good one when weighed against the negatives, which are significant.

Justathought

Being transsexual generally doesn't revolve around any sexual feelings. I personally had feelings that I wanted things to be different long before I developed sexual desires. That my sexual desires were related to men may or may not be related to my being transsexual however, as there appears to be a spectrum of sexualities across transgender people as there are in those who aren't I would imagine it doesn't.

Of course when I was five or six I did not think that I was transsexual. I just knew that my feeling was a discomfort with my anatomy and a deep seated desire to wake up and be a girl.

I do appreciate that for most the dysphoria feelings go or never even appear but for the small cohort for whom they remain in a persistent and distressing fashion I support them getting help. I know that isn't an opinion universally held but, it is by no means a lone voice.

Old crone

The figures include all children referred. By a long way most are referred during the early to mid teens with 13-15 being the highest. There are some under 10's but the numbers are very small. The GIDS website does provide a breakdown by age so that information is available. I'd be surprised if they started blockers at 16 but I don't know that for sure it's just that by 16 for many who are persistent in their dysphoria the damage is done and is likely to rely on surgery later in life to sort it out. I suppose a detailed FOI request would put the matter (figures wise) to bed. I don't know what information they'll publish but, if it's not personal I can't see a reasonable reason to decline it.

allmywhat

Im glad you're so pleasant. I understand population sampling but that leads only to a hypothesis not a definitive figure. That's not my fault it's just how it is. Now the extrapolation may be correct but we have no way of asserting that with a huge degree of confidence. If that name has annoyed you then I feel for you really.

I'm not a TRA, I don't involve myself in any activism. I happen to support some views of either side of the debate. Perhaps that is fence sitting but I'm not overly comfortable with either side and certainly don't fit in neatly to either side.

However, if you can't resist resorting to underhand comments then I'm afraid I've no wish to engage you any further which I am sure will please us both. A forum of debate and question is exactly that, if I wanted to be spoken to as if I were a fool I'd spend my days on Kiwi farms, Mewe or Gab. Thank you again for the earlier link it was an interesting read but that's all I have to say to you. Goodnight.

In the previous three financial years of 3958 referrals approximately 800 children were prescribed blockers (source - info request by the Daily Hate) if the children on blockers had all been referred in that last 3 years (which is not made clear) it would suggest that the incidence of diagnosis and puberty blocker prescriptions was about 20% of those initially referred.

What are the ages of those children? If that 3958 includes children of all ages, some of them will not yet have started puberty so will be too young for the medication. Also, GIDS exclude children aged 16+ (or 15+, I can't remember) from their FOI releases about puberty blockers, but might include them in the number of referrals.

Of course I don't have a crystal ball however I suspect in the majority of cases as with any other condition that the clinicians are pretty good at getting it right.

How? When this is what the NHS says about gender dysphoria:

There are no physical symptoms of gender dysphoria, but people with the condition may experience and display a range of feelings and behaviours.

In many cases, a person with gender dysphoria begins to feel a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity during early childhood. For others, this may not happen until adulthood.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms/

It's worth reading the whole page to see how woolly the diagnostic criteria are. There is no objective test. The mass resignations from GIDS and the testimony of people like Marcus Evans show that in many cases, the professionals are not getting it right.