Douglas Murray on denunciations and Lawrence Fox

I am deeply concerned that the two are being conflated, and with the idea that GC women should align ourselves with far right wing men (who HATE US) simply because “woke culture” is against both of us.

I agree. However, how the hell are we supposed to identify who is ‘far right’ nowadays when the term is thrown about so casually.

I’ve seen some real ‘lefties’ labelled as far-right recently for simply having the ‘wrong’ opinion on some issues (eg supporting Brexit). The term is rapidly losing its meaning.

Blakes77
MissSmith ?
No you don't have to give your money away to African people ...for the love of God ! grin Just accepting that you don't have an extra obstacle to certain things is probably enough
Well that was the issue on QT - LFox was asking what she, the audience member, wanted him to do.
I certainly know I don't have any other obstacle - -- other than being an old woman which moves me down the pile a few levels.
What needs to change is the behaviour of people in power- employers, politicians , the influencers. Berating every white person, or every former public schoolboy etc just pisses people off.

*haven’t

Sorry

No I agree with Foxy The race thing was a convenient excuse for the police not to act. They don't act when black girls are abused either. The police's contempt for young poor girls is pretty equal opportunities.
And what are you "supposed to do" about white privilege MissSmith ?
No you don't have to give your money away to African people ...for the love of God ! Just accepting that you don't have an extra obstacle to certain things is probably enough.
Yes Mockers, everyone should take equal treatment for granted and it shouldn't be a privilege but given that everyone isn't on a level playing field sometimes absence of prejudice can seem very much like privilege from the outside looking in.

“ Any idiot who thinks we live in a meritocracy deserves to be ignored”

I have read the whole thread but surely no one thinks that!

“ has experienced a massive surge in fame and career purely for expressing these views.”

Um, not really. His career was fine. The death threats, not so much.

Also, I’m not aware of him arguing he’s a victim but if he said it after death threats, I’d be inclined to agree.

I’d have lost my last two jobs if they knew my political views and I think that’s appalling. Then again, maybe I was the only brown woman they interviewed and that’s why I got the jobs. Who knows?

Any idiot who thinks we live in a meritocracy deserves to be ignored.

After the ongoing Stephen Lawrence case I thought that any policeperson or social worker could be at risk of losing their job if accused of racism.
It's unfair imv to expect people to 'be reasonable' or 'do the right thing' if they will get sacked for what is seen as a racist decision whilst the gov ministers, who promise to get rid of racism - in the police or whatever, in response to headlines in the media and demands for change in parliament are never held to account for the results of their sweeping legislations.
So we get Rotherham and Manchester.

Needmoresleep, BovaryX, TheRealMcKenna,

Excellent posts, I find this forum illuminating and fascinating.

Laurence Fox said something about U.K. being least racist in Europe - so he was partly comparing the U.K. in which case uk comes out welll as far as racism is concerned. Sorry can't be bothered to find it again, it is on YouTube.
If someone does accept that they have white privileged. What are they supposed to do - should I have given most of my savings to poor African countries and let my own DCs scrimp and scrape to get on the housing ladder - or see them alright?
Should L Fox turn down job offers so they are available to black actors? Even though it will probably go to another white actor.
There is privilege but quite what you do about I'm not sure.

I wish I'd been around more on this thread earlier, Bovary, but...RL.

The "forcing the moderate middle to pick sides" reaction came to me early on, on 9/11. I recall watching it unfold in all its tragedy and horror and realised that as much as anything, it was intended to provoke the whole world to divide and entrench rather than just accept differences, embrace what we have in common, and generally rub along with each other.

It was especially marked because we were abroad at the time - I speak other languages so was able to join in what was being said - and our feelings of horror and trepidation at what this would mean were so clearly shared by everyone, regardless of nationality, ethnicity, culture or anything else.

I openly admit that I’m a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to social media, and haven’t been on Twitter very long. I have noticed a few things recently though:

1. You are considered to be as right-wing as the most right-wing person you have been seen to associate/debate with
2. If you hold socially conservative views about anything then you are automatically assumed to be right-wing
3. If you have a protected characteristic and hold socially conservative views on anything then you are no longer in possession of the protected characteristic and are, in fact, deemed to be deserving of abuse by other people with that protected characteristic who hold the ‘right’ view
4. If you admit to being generally right-of-centre then you are, in fact, alt-right or far-right

This is leading to several things:

1. Accusations that the ‘far right’ is on the increase. Of course they are - we’re all ‘far right’ now unless we hold the ‘correct’ opinions on everything.
2. People with the ‘correct’ opinions refuse to engage at all with anyone with the ‘wrong’ opinions due to fear of guilt by association. Hence we now have the rise in ‘I don’t know anyone who votes tory’.
3. The ‘liberals’ destroy themselves by stepping on any of the ‘incorrect’ landlines. Hence we have the Paul Mason/Rebecca Long Bailey fiasco and the Joe Rogan/Bernie Sanders fiasco.

Meanwhile, the real far right are simply able to hide in plain sight and the social justice movement is distracted from the real injustices in the world by getting completely hysterical about minutiae.

I think there is a confusion sometimes by what is meant by "white privilege.
I had a conversation with a white male friend who is in a very well paid professional job. He said basically the same as what Mockers said; Chinese students do the best of all, white working class boys are at the bottom of the pile etc.
The thing is, white privilege, like male privileged doesnt mean that all white people are privileged, just like not all male people are privileged.
But I explained to my friend that, as a white man, he started his career in an easier mode than if he had been a black woman, NOT necessarily in that he was given special privileges, or that a black woman would be treated badly, but in that being a white middle class male in that environment is sort of like being "neutral". They wouldn't have made particular assumptions about him (as most of his office was white men) in the way they might had he been a Muslim woman or a Chinese guy. He didn't have to get past any barriers to begin with.
Now, I don't think the UK is more racist than anywhere, and I'm not a fan of Meghan Markle (OR our press for that matter) but I am irritated by white men who say that some kind of pre-conceptions about people who don't start life in "neutral" mode don't exist because some brown and black people do very well for themselves in life. Just like I'm not impressed by men who say sexism doesn't exist because we have had a female prime minister, or because some men are homeless.

Needmoresleep, my thoughts entirely, and I think you expressed it very well.

I don't believe I am racist or xenophobic, most certainly not consciously anyway, and I try hard to be sensitive to the fact that other people's life experiences are different than mine simply because of outward appearances and the views of others.

Live and let live would be my personal philosophy and I look forward to the day when what we say and what we do is more important than what we are. But it won't happen as long as there are so many in the public spotlight who think the only way forward is to shut down intelligent discussion and scream insults. It just entrenches division and - worse than that, in my opinion - it forces the moderate middle to pick sides. Something they would prefer not to do, being largely of the "live and let live" persuasion too.

Morning, Autumn, I'd never heard of Dominic Frisby before you found this. You have enriched my life. Again.

need aww.

We can sing this together

New category? MN BFF

need oh me too. I thought we’d met before 😀