Douglas Murray on denunciations and Lawrence Fox

interesting take from Janice Turner on this by the way

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/laurence-fox-was-a-lamb-to-the-culture-war-slaughter-w3h2mfcpt

this has been such an interesting thread. not just for the great posts, but to see in action those who believe in censorship and those who don't

in a post up thread someone has told the OP to go fuck herself. that post still stands because those who believe in free speech have not reported it. by contrast, a number of posts by those advocating free speech have been deleted

To be fair, as pointed out to me, words like misogynist and homophobic are getting a fair outing too. Rightly so in my view, but never the less are having a similar affect on the other team. All a bit self defeating in the end

There's a good line in 'The Great Beauty' ( Paolo Sorrentino) where the friends are all sitting on the terrace ruing their lost opportunities, and Jep criticises Stefania for her pompousness.....she responds:

S: " You're a misogynist"

J: " No, Stefania, I'm a misanthropist; it's not all about you".

That's the problem with inter-sectionality. All personal criticism, or views you don't like, can be ascribed to your own particular place in the hierarchy of oppression, and then dismissed.

White privilege' and 'bigot' have lost their meaning through reflexive over-use.

Absolutely. Other words like transphobic, nazi, fascist also go into the meaningless through overuse bin.

To be fair, as pointed out to me, words like misogynist and homophobic are getting a fair outing too. Rightly so in my view, but never the less are having a similar affect on the other team. All a bit self defeating in the end.

I am trying myself to express myself without using these over-exposed, blank numb words. It's not easy. It's all quite depressing.

The issue for me is that even people who do not fully understand an issue should still be able to state an opinion without being vilified and denounced by their union.

He is by no means the first either. Supporting the upholding of a democratic decision should hardly be something which goes against the principles of the trade union movement...

unherd.com/2019/07/the-betrayal-of-paul-embery/

So, I should basically, STFU, withdraw from society and listen to people who lecture me about my part in all the evil things which have happened in the history of the World.

Of course you should. Then along comes an election and everyone is really surprised when they realise that your vote is worth exactly the same as everyone else’s and there is a hell of a lot of you and the ‘incorrect’ party ends up in power.

Either political discussion becomes less toxic regarding a lot of issues (I’m not just talking about race) or the electorate will continue to disappoint the social justice movement.

The issue for me is that even people who do not fully understand an issue should still be able to state an opinion without being vilified and denounced by their union.
The whole premise of Question Time is to ask people what they think about contentious matters on which they may not be expert.

As a white male who was born in the late fifties, I am:

White, privileged, "boomer", probably misogynistic

So, I should basically, STFU, withdraw from society and listen to people who lecture me about my part in all the evil things which have happened in the history of the World.

MM&PH: We're resigning and we're going to keep these perks.
Member of public: If you're off then that's it, pay for it yourselves, don't be spongers.
SJWs: Racist!
MoP: How is complaining about how they're spending our money racist?
SJWs: You don't understand because of your white privilege.

This way of arguing is plain stupid.

I think shutting discussion down with accusations of privilege is silly and unhelpful. Especially when we are talking about a beautiful and wealthy member of the royal family who was a famous actress previously. Her looks have eased her path far more than mine have - and although no doubt there is racism at work in some of the criticism it doesn’t explain all of it. Fergie was also excoriated and partly it’s because she was not as thin and beautiful as Diana.

I can’t talk about MM and what she and Harry want in their gilded lives because of my white privilege ? Not having that.

For example white privilege not existing for all

I'm not a fan of Laurence Fox, in fact I don't take well to him personally at all...and he doesn't seem that articulate, or bright........but the way the audience member tried to close him down by using 'white male privilege' was bound to provoke a response.

Of course prejudice exists........but in terms of law all citizens are now protected by equal civil rights.......beyond that prejudice, institutionalised or 'casual everyday' comes in all shapes, sizes and forms.......

This thread has been an echo chamber of people who do not understand and do not want to understand the issues faced by people of colour

Just not true! The problem arises when anything and everything is put down to 'white privilege' and when 'white privilege' is used to quash dissent and debate. " White privilege' and 'bigot' have lost their meaning through reflexive over-use.

And also the problem arises that with over-use, actual racism and bigotry goes unchecked, uncommented upon and un-noticed. Because tribal minds just rely on trigger words and banned topics to judge what is or is not racist or bigoted.

One of the most glaring examples, often used by people posting on this forum, is when we are told that " Trans women are women, in the same way that black women are women". How racist can you get.

Also see the short video clip posted above - in which a black man is accused of 'white privilege' by an interviewer ( who doesn't realise he's black) purely because he has an alternative view-point & because he works for an organisation that black people are 'not supposed to work for'.

Nobody here is denying that racism exists.

@joyfullittlehippo I wholeheartedly agree with you. This thread has been an echo chamber of people who do not understand and do not want to understand the issues faced by people of colour.

For example white privilege not existing for all, and refusing to listen to the masses of evidence that shows ethnic minority men are more likely to be stopped and searched by white men. They are more likely to be charged for possessing drugs (for example) and are more likely to get a custodial sentence then a white defendant. It exists unlike the positive discrimination that people like to bandy around.

Oh I don’t know. ...Her performance in Great Britain was extraordinary and she was on stage for almost the whole show. If I get a chance to see her on stage again, even id shift my lazy arse and go.

I don’t watch Lewis but it sounds like a solid career to me.

Ironically, I think Great Britain would probably not be shown now. The only two wokesters I know were very upset about it.

Blakes77 believe what you want but independent reviews and whistle blowers disagree.

Joyful he isn’t a c list actor at all. His ex on the other hand is an awful actor, I don’t know anyone who rates her. I guess it depends if you watch and like crap and she’s been in a lot of crap programmes.

One problem with white privilege being used in a discussion is when it is used in an attempt to shut people down:

That's what's being discussed on this thread.

There's so much discrete racism on this thread it's vile. MNHQ already deleted 3 posts for it. Why do you think it's OK to spout this rubbish? And in FWR? What does this have to do with feminism? You believe in male privilege, Correct? What makes that different from white privilege?

“ It's offensive to suggest that areas of a historically entirely Caucasian population which still happen to be that way are morally or culturally lacking because of it. Fed up of this narrative”

Agree.

This is the problem with the rhetoric around Meghan Markle. It is not that she is held to be a person who can do no wrong. It is that, for certain sections of the media and the public who so eagerly devour their bile, she can do no right. That's racism

Not necessarily........there are many public figures who "can do no right" and are hounded and mercilessly and forensically dissected by the tabloid press.

Diana, before she took on mythic status, also had her private correspondences published in the press........and was trailed everywhere by paparazzi. People would comment how she wasn't very bright.....and so on.

It's offensive to suggest that areas of a historically entirely Caucasian population which still happen to be that way are morally or culturally lacking because of it. Fed up of this narrative.

I saw this on Twitter earlier this week and thought it was quite hilarious...

I suppose we could survey all of the opinions of the bad people, strip them out of our opinions, and then see what we're left with. (It won't be much.)