Trans women in womens toilet

Hi Tubbytwo, do stay. I quite enjoyed reading your comments.

On your disagreement, it seems to me much more a case of crossed wires at first. I understood what Justhadathought said quite differently from you and if wires are crossed, it's not unusual to then get a little (or a lot) riled up with each other, especially between strangers on a message board.

If you use a female toilet knowing that you may be making women uncomfortable, frightened, perhaps triggering PTSD symptoms etc, but choose to do so anyway, what does that mean?

The thing is, though, many men have no clue about the proportion of women who are somewhere on the sliding scale of wary/anxious/frightened/traumatised by male assault. My own DH was chump enough to say that he thought I must be exaggerating the numbers, as 'no one he knew' had mentioned ever being sexually assaulted.

There was a perfectly pleasant-sounding transwoman on here a while back who had happily used the women's pool at Hampstead because a couple of friends had urged that 'nobody would mind', and, you know what, nobody had objected out loud, so they were clearly right and it was fine.

Clueless.

Credit where it's due, though, this person did sound taken aback and shocked at the thought that the presence of a male person might have upset anyone (they'd only seen it in terms of 'Will the women make me uncomfortable?').

Thanks spaceships 😊 I’m loving the fact that we are actually allowed to debate feminist issues here without being ‘cancelled’ or otherwise made to sit down and shut up!

Tubby please do stick around! This place will drive you barmy at times but save your sanity more often

Justhadathought,

Amongst other things, you've stated about me that -

"My feeling is that you are being rather disingenuous and not very straightforward....or else you live a reclusive life away from the lights of the big city; and maybe don't own a TV? Maybe Mumsnet is your only place of social exchange?"

Meanwhile, back in the real world, I am here for intelligent and respectful debate on feminism and, in this particular case, whether male-bodied people should be allowed in female lavatories. I am finding your multiple posts addressed to me difficult to reply to because I can't see them all and replying in a similar piecemeal fashion to yours is far too time consuming.

Please would you stop your ad hominen attacks on me? So far you have called me disingenuous, not straightforward, a recluse, someone who does not own a television and also appear to be claiming that I have no friends and that Mumsnet is my 'only place of social exchange'. Don't you think that is all incredibly rude?

I don't recognise myself in your derogatory descriptions and have been on Mumsnet all of a week which disproves your last insult pretty throughly! In the light of the foregoing I don't think there's much point continuing to debate with each other is there? I haven't felt the need to insult you because, as I said, I am here for intelligent respectful debate with like-minded feminists. You obviously have a completely different agenda so let's agree to move on and ignore each other if you don't like my point of view. Thanks.

If you use a female toilet knowing that you may be making women uncomfortable, frightened, perhaps triggering PTSD symptoms etc, but choose to do so anyway, what does that mean?

It means you’re an immoral individual who is more worried about ‘looking’ kind and inclusive, while actually excluding the truly oppressed members of society, ie: women who don’t want to/are frightened to share female spaces with male bodied people. They don’t count because the mighty penis rules.

Regina silence isn't acceptance. This with bells on.

If you use a female toilet knowing that you may be making women uncomfortable, frightened, perhaps triggering PTSD symptoms etc, but choose to do so anyway, what does that mean?

(Statistically many, many women will have experienced sexual assault at the hands of a man, so this is far from an unlikely scenario).

Most women will not speak up. Because they're scared to. Using women's single sex spaces is coercive, potentially threatening, and unethical.

It's bullying, basically.

I, like many women I think (and assuming I was desperate for a wee and couldn't wait, would have kept my head) down, gone and done my wee, then just never returned to the place (and warned other women about it later). Pretty much how I deal with poor service everywhere when I don't have someone else to defend and have alternatives.

Unless I thought physical violence was about to happen - as in this case, I would have found a way to hang around that toilet if that poor woman was actually having to shut herself in a cubicle for protection. I have offered to act as a witness before in similar situations, made sure that the person was OK etc.

How that woman was treated was unacceptable.

General comment, justhadathought giving some background to the history of feminist activism around lavatories in public spaces (or outside the home)

O.K! Thanks!

General comment, justhadathought giving some background to the history of feminist activism around lavatories in public spaces (or outside the home).

So don't dismiss women who object to the undiscussed slide into mixed-sex lavatories. Safe, private, secure facilities for women are essential

Who is dismissing anything? You've got the wrong poster.

I think that might possibly demand a knowledge of fashion which is outside my orbit since clubbers (or whatever the current word is? I’m no longer young) seem to dress quite skimpily to my way of thinking

My feeling is that you are being rather disingenuous and not very straightforward....or else you live a reclusive life away from the lights of the big city; and maybe don't own a TV? Maybe Mumsnet is your only place of social exchange?

Regarding Grayson Perry, I recently read a memoir he'd written in which he talks about the development of his transvestitism, and what it means and symbolises for him. He talks about its nature as a sexualised fetish; but he knows he's male, and uses male facilities as one would expect. It's a good read: humorous, revealing, touching.

Nobody is expecting you to do your own filtering when in the Ladies loos...most here want to retain single sex spaces and services.....but some are simply saying that presented with the situation that started this thread, or with any similar situation, how they might deal with it themselves. Not sure what else you are expecting?

Regarding your 'weighing up' of the situation, I've asked before on this thread how you tell the difference between an autogynephile and a non autogynephile but the silence has been deafening

I live in a large city, in which it is common to come across people 'presenting' as the opposite sex in one way or other.You do develop a feeling and an instinct when you encounter situations on a regular basis. Obviously that is not scientific study - but an intuitive one. Also, some people do tend to be 'sensitive' to character, generally.

The thing is the 'trans umbrella' is so wide these days that even cross dressers come under it.

Have to say, I'm not quite sure what you are driving at? Or quite where you are coming from? Could you explain in simple terms? what is the crux of your issue? I'm imagining ( but not sure) that you also, don't think mixed sex/gender neutral toilets are the right way to go?

The onus should be on trans people and their allies to campaign for this provision, rather than moving in on the spaces that women have managed to secure for themselves

I'll come on here boringly to say, once again (once more with feeling), that access to safe, private, and secure, public lavatories was an important campaign in the 19th century to enable women to enter into public space.

I'm not sure just how much women today realise how constrained "respectable" women were in the 19th century. The expectation was that a "respectable" woman would not leave her house on her own. And if she did, she was not respectable, with all the implications of that. For example, the Contagious Diseases Act enabled police in port towns (eg Plymouth, Southampton) to forcibly incarcerate women they suspected of being prostitutes and forcibly inspect them gynaecolgically for signs of STDs (look up the instruments they used. The point here is that almost any woman walking alone could be picked up by authorities in this way. So working-class women, walking to & fro their jobs were particularly at risk.

Because the "logic" was that any woman in public was - by reason of being in public without a man - therefore not "respectable."

So, that's an example of the legal punishments of women in public space.

I am old enough to remember that it was a regular puny excuse for not employing women in so-called "masculine" jobs (eg engineers, architects, doctors, university lecturers, manual labourers, carpenters - anything that paid well, really!) that there were not enough toilets. And no room to build new ones.

this is living memory and lived experience.

So don't dismiss women who object to the undiscussed slide into mixed-sex lavatories. Safe, private, secure facilities for women are essential.

Not having them has been used for the last couple of hundred years as a big reason why women should not participate in public life as workers, employees, and in leisure activities.

We are often told that gender neutral/mixed sex is the norm in France

Not in my experience. Only tiny tabacs have one toilet, there are nearly always two.

I think that might possibly demand a knowledge of fashion which is outside my orbit since clubbers (or whatever the current word is? I’m no longer young) seem to dress quite skimpily to my way of thinking.

Having walked past a queue of young women entering some event or other in Leeds last summer, I did think something similar as I replied, but Twitter shows some quite extreme male visions of “womanhood” and there was a video on here recently about a transitioner about my age whose outfit left very little to the imagination, so “inappropriate” age might also be a factor.

Like you, I’m too old for clubbing, but it may still be possible, and also not all queues are in clubs, and the PP may have meant more generally.

Sorry, that should read an error of judgement!

Ok, thanks for the explanation AnyOldPrion 🙂 I think that might possibly demand a knowledge of fashion which is outside my orbit since clubbers (or whatever the current word is? I’m no longer young) seem to dress quite skimpily to my way of thinking.

Can I ask if a certain well known potter would be labelled in a particular way? Or a certain singer who recently declared themselves ‘non-binary’? I’m going to take a lot more convincing before believing that women can (or should have to!!!!) weigh up the trustworthiness of individual transwomen when they are in what the majority of us would clearly prefer to be single sex spaces. If we make an error or judgement would we be considered responsible for the possible consequences? I feel as though we’re entering ‘she was asking for it your honour’ territory here ...

I can’t imagine there’s a clear definitive visual dividing line between HSTS and AGP (assuming those exist and are accurate). But in general, if they do exist, the tendency would likely be that an HSTS would dress in a similar way to women, so as to fit in, whereas someone for whom it was sexual would likely be wearing a hyper sexualised outfit.

Been on Twitter too long to ignore the obvious fact that some males get a sexual kick out of trying to reimagine themselves as “slutty girlies”.

@Justhadathought

I've just re-read the OP and nowhere does it suggest that the woman who challenged the transwoman shouted or swore. I am assuming she spoke as 'discreetly' as you say you would have done, had you been there. The end result was that she was intimidated, shouted at and dragged out by a bouncer. How would you have obtained a different result? I'm genuinely curious to know.

Regarding your 'weighing up' of the situation, I've asked before on this thread how you tell the difference between an autogynephile and a non autogynephile but the silence has been deafening. You obviously know the answer if you are able to 'weigh [it] up' so please for my sake (and for the sake of every other women who cannot see into the souls of others and check them for gender) tell me how to do it. Thank you :)

Personally, I'd have been scared and walked away to find another loo, possibly in another venue altogether if the one in question only had 'mixed gender' facilities. I WOULD NOT have spoken up due to fear and intimidation

I'm a confident and fairly out-spoken person......that is not to say that everyone is, or can be......I'd also, therefore, see myself as saying that on your behalf.

As someone suggested earlier, I'd also weigh up the 'situation' - and proceed accordingly, depending on my instinct.

To whom would you have said it? How would you make your speech 'discreet'? What result would you have been hoping for

I would have said that to the obvious interloper in the ladies loo......
Discreet implies, to me, not shouting or swearing, but saying something in a normal, everyday tone....yet with intent. The intent would be to make clear that this is a women's space and that I'd like to protect and maintain that.

And all this happened where people had drink taken, which makes it even more dangerous.

The bouncers should have just ensured that everyone went to the toilet designated for their sex.

And, I'm pretty sure that I would have been super woke when I was young and ignorance.