Trans women in womens toilet

Ellabars, no, the trans woman does not have the right to use the female toilet if she is not female and it is my right as a female to have this opinion. You haven't got a vagina you aren't coming into the female toilets and you haven't got a penis you aren't coming into the male toilets unless you are a parent with your child and I don't care who this offends. My opinion is just as worthy as anyone elses. I don't care what the person identifies as, it is my opinion that genetalia determines it.

*I can’t help but feel a lot of this is pure hatred rather than genuine concern for safety8

I don't see that at all....what I see is the radical TRA movement pushing and pushing; demanding and demanding, and not caring one bit about the feelings of comfort and dignity of women. It is inevitable that there will be push back and radicalisation in these circumstances. It actually feels like the disregard ( & even 'hatred') is coming the other way.

Third spaces meet the need of an alternative to sex specific spaces without removing single sex spaces from females. Everyone's needs met

Agreed! If all of this is really about safety, comfort and dignity for all, then third spaces are the only solution. It's quite obvious really.

If you couldn’t even tell a woman was born a biological male, what would be the issue in them using women’s facilities? They would be causing no distress to anyone there as everyone would assume they were biologically female, and they’re clearly not going to go through extensive surgery removing their penis, hormone therapy etc

The issue, clearly, is when obviously male bodied people are using women's facilities. I suggest that many MTF think they pass - when really they don't.

Please also report any posts which breach guidelines.

When it was the original GRA system of about 5000 people (not all of them MtF people) and a gatekept system where the majority intended full transition, female people weren't consulted but the idea was total transition and very small numbers.

It's sadly been proven that there is no way to gatekeep which males, which degree of transition. Who is going to stand at the door of the female facilities and decide who passes and manage the anger and distress of someone told no? We've gone from total transition to fully male presenting people who cannot be questioned if they say they identify as a woman. That system you're suggesting was tried, but there are those who will always push the boundaries further and further. This is still at heart about the female spaces being a validation of personal identity: it doesn't allow for reciprocal care about impact upon the females whose spaces are being used.

Third spaces meet the need of an alternative to sex specific spaces without removing single sex spaces from females. Everyone's needs met.

I think the obvious solution here is unisex facilities, we have male and female changing facilities where I work and also private unisex ones, it works very well.

I understand the issue with self ID and male presenting trans women, however, what about trans women who have had top and bottom surgery and “pass”? Surely people can’t expect them to get changed in male facilities? Not only is that incredibly dangerous for them, but it would make men extremely uncomfortable. If you couldn’t even tell a woman was born a biological male, what would be the issue in them using women’s facilities? They would be causing no distress to anyone there as everyone would assume they were biologically female, and they’re clearly not going to go through extensive surgery removing their penis, hormone therapy etc just to perv on women. What I’m asking is are people objecting to anyone who doesn’t have two X chromosomes using women’s spaces or just male presenting trans women?

I’m asking this, because I do see there are very valid concerns about self ID and male bodies in female spaces, concerns I share, however, when a lot of posters also talk about all trans people in derogative ways, such as referring to them as “it”, I can’t help but feel a lot of this is pure hatred rather than genuine concern for safety.

Agrona

It seems that nothing but the complete eradication of women from the world will do for TRAs.

@Tubbytwo DP always felt awful using the mens toilets, like they were constantly being watched. In dont get why men cant just have all cubicles too.
@FFSFFSFFS they dont use the toilet if we are out, its just easier.

Justabadwife, thanks for replying. I would have no problem with a third space provision either because one of my gay male friends used to find the male toilets too scary to visit when he was at school. He was bullied there more than anywhere. He was also of the opinion that trans women should be allowed to use the female toilets until I pointed out what was blindingly obvious to me ... I think he gets it now ...

But once dp has surgery obviously then she will use the female toilets.

Quick reminder to everyone, including Justabadwife, that this is the kind of exchange the Misogynist Mumsnet Monitors, who are no doubt reading might decide to screenshot & share on Twitter.

@Tubbytwo I know there is a whole thing with trans activists (but dp isn't one of them) and not wanting unisex toilets, But what I'm thinking is probably different to them.
I'm thinking like a disabled toilet space, an individual lockable toilet. Not a room full of toilets that anyone could use with gaps either at the top and bottom of the door.

I would absolutely support and gladly join campaigns for unisex spaces in addition to male and female. I believe everyone has the right to privacy, dignity and to be in a space where they don't feel uncomfortable or unsafe.

Third spaces is the only rational way out of this that meets needs. However some activists have been very clear that they would not use third spaces even if provided and would still insist on entering female only spaces because of their need to have their identity recognised. They explain that the cost of distressing and excluding females a perfectly justifiable one to meet their own needs.

Definitely write to them with the cut and pasted legislation @Gcoldtimer has provided op asking for the reason they are not complying with the law. You could also go to the police as a witness for what you saw them do to the woman. Ask them to investigate. Give them a copy of the legislation too as they're probably as ignorant after stonewall 'training' as everyone else.

People who very firmly believe they're Napoleon should be given French palaces, I suppose.

Would your ‘trans wife’ accept a third space toilet?

Before I start, I will say I have a trans wife (Male to female) with genuine dysphoria, not some bloke who dresses as sharon on a Saturday, but someone who lives as a woman 24 hours a day who has changed their name legally, has photo ID in their new name, and very rarely gets misgendered.
I feel like there should be some unisex toilets, DP cannot use the Male toilets, it causes untold distress, but obviously using the female toilets is a tricky one, it wouldn't bother me, but it would bother others, and people should feel safe in their space.
So we are kind of stuck.

*You obviously have a completely different agenda so let's agree to move on and ignore each other if you don't like my point of view.

Thing is...I've no idea what your point is......You seem to have labouring the same point for several pages.....and not happy with anyone's response.....

Most of us here are against mixed sex/gender neutral toilet; the same for other single sex services and facilities.

i agree let's not attempt any further communication. It's not so much I have a "different agenda"......It's more that I simply cannot fathom yours*

Woah! Yet more insults and made up 'facts' about me. If you can't figure out that I don't want male-bodied people in the ladies loos then I honestly don't know how to explain it to you any more clearly.

As for me 'not being happy with anyone's response', what are you even talking about? I am very happy with everyone's response except yours because you seem to have made it your job to attack me for a load of made up faults you perceive I have. Are you like this to anyone else or have I somehow riled you by joining the forum?

There's really is no need to add yet another post explaining to another forum user that you think you are right to insult me. We're not in a playground trying to gather a little gang of acolytes are we?

I think there is room for all women on this board (natal born ones that is) but you seem determined to make me leave. If the admins think I've done something to justify being banned I'll leave but until then please can I just post like everyone else without you following me round to point out that you don't like me?

many men have no clue about the proportion of women who are somewhere on the sliding scale of wary/anxious/frightened/traumatised by male assault.

Yes, I suppose that's why the 'me too' movement came as such a huge shock for so many men.

So, for anyone watching who is in doubt:

20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, equivalent to 3.4 million female and 631,000 male victims

98% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by males.

This means that out of any five women you come across, at least one of them has experienced sexual assault. We'll not bother with domestic violence or sexual harrassment, but that would add to the number.

Many victims of sexual assault will have lasting effects from the experience, including trauma responses.

rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence/

On your disagreement, it seems to me much more a case of crossed wires at first. I understood what Justhadathought said quite differently from you

I think you're right! My problem is that I simply am unsure of what the poster is trying to communicate.To me they seemed to be assuming disagreement from the start.....

You obviously have a completely different agenda so let's agree to move on and ignore each other if you don't like my point of view. Thank

Thing is...I've no idea what your point is......You seem to have labouring the same point for several pages.....and not happy with anyone's response.....

Most of us here are against mixed sex/gender neutral toilet; the same for other single sex services and facilities.

i agree let's not attempt any further communication. It's not so much I have a "different agenda"......It's more that I simply cannot fathom yours.

@Tubbytwo - hang around. I came here a skeptic and was radicalised. In a week. Peak trans.

Here's my 'good news' or rather mildly amusing story. I was in the changing room at my central London gym before Christmas. It was about 10 am so empty except for me and the cleaner. I'm standing there with my boobs out drying off after a shower and a person wearing lady clothes walks in. Looking a little uncertain and doesn't make eye contact. I said 'are you lost?'. Response 'I'm looking for the ladies'. I said 'this is the mens. Women's changing is down the hall on the left'.

Off the person scuttled. Okay, it's a tiny victory. And then I went up to reception and checked their policy. Long conversation with receptionist who said '(more or less) 'I don't earn enough to deal with this nonsense - do you want want to talk to the manager?'. Indeed I did. Hand waving and 'inclusive' and until I quoted the legislation to the manager. Still no clarity on policy.

I've had four children and I'm happy to be naked around persons of both sexes. But I'm also Bolshie and I'm not going to put up with that nonsense if I can personally do something about it.

I'm not giving away the rights of any woman if I can help it.

@dodopatrol so so true. Men dont get that a. women are socialised to be nice b. we're especially socialised to be nice to men c. men are much bigger as a class than we are and innate self protection kicks in - generally we dont want to annoy people who are much larger than us and have the capacity to hurt us