Trans women in womens toilet

So "Kubla Khan" by Samuel Taylor Coleridge should be rewritten from:

"It was an Abyssinian maid"

to

"She was an Abyssinian maid?"

“So what you’re saying is it’s okay to post hateful comments about trans people

You keep saying this...but where is the evidence? Give some examples of supposed hatred from this thread, for example.“

Head over to the feminism forum and look for yourself, it’s not that hard, easier still, google “mumsnet transphobia” and you will find a plethora of examples and articles discussing the rampant transphobia on here.

If you genuinely as you claim, have never seen such posts on here I suggest you look more carefully as this forum is littered with them.

If the forum is littered with them, then I should be able to find them. I can’t! Can you please show me?

it would make men extremely uncomfortable.

So the women who are extremely uncomfortable should consider the discomfort of the men and get over it. Of course.

WHERE! Where are the posts that refer to trans people as IT! I have even reread this thread and still can’t find them!

“Are women allowed any space at - all in your mind - which has not been colonised by your version of reality?“

What on earth are you talking about? Have you even read my posts or are you just putting words into my mouth to suit your agenda and argument?

I agree that male bodies should not be in female spaces, I also believe on the same token female bodies should not be in male spaces, I disagree however, that this concern means it’s acceptable to disparage and mock an entire group of people purely because a small group of them are radicalised. Referring to people as “it”, constantly misgendering them and mocking their mental health problems is transphobic and not necessary to discuss issues with self ID and safety, something which is extremely common on this website, and something you keep trying to dispute or justify. If you genuinely as you claim, have never seen such posts on here I suggest you look more carefully as this forum is littered with them.

when a lot of posters also talk about all trans people in derogative ways, such as referring to them as “it”, I can’t help but feel a lot of this is pure hatred rather than genuine concern for safety

I'm not gender critical. There are aspects of the discussion on here I don't like but I've never seen "it" used.

However in this case there was no risk. Lots of people, very safe ... I can see that people can be uncomfortable but that's where it should end

Why? Why should it end because only one woman spoke out? How many women have to feel uncomfortable before their opinion is given the same weight as a male bodied person who doesn’t feel comfortable identifying as their born sex? If it’s simply about lots of people, very safe, then surly the male toilets would have been just as safe?

when a lot of posters also talk about all trans people in derogative ways, such as referring to them as “it”, I can’t help but feel a lot of this is pure hatred rather than genuine concern for safety.

I must have missed all those posts that refer to trans people as it. Could you point them out please? I’m very shocked as I’ve never seen that terminology used by any of the regular posters. I have, however seen some comments on other feminist threads plopped on by new posters, which are then very quickly screenshot in order to prove how nasty the GC Feminists are. Is it possible that’s the case. I understand that it can be difficult to tell the difference between genuine posters and those seeking to create division.

I am sorry. I meant the person was a trans woman. The 'it' was an honest mistake.

So what you’re saying is it’s okay to post hateful comments about trans people

You keep saying this...but where is the evidence? Give some examples of supposed hatred from this thread, for example.

However in this case there was no risk. Lots of people, very safe ... I can see that people can be uncomfortable but that's where it should end

This site is well known for allowing such posts and not acting against them

Really ? Where ? I'd suggest that this forum is well known for being one of the few places, on-line, where women can meet and discuss the issues that most affect them. Trans activists have the rest of the internet to spew vile comments, and threats, without censure.

Are women allowed any space at - all in your mind - which has not been colonised by your version of reality?

It’s not okay, my point is you can’t claim to be a feminist, which is a movement which aims for equality between the sexes and say it’s not okay for women to have male bodies in their areas because it makes the uncomfortable, but it’s okay for men to have female bodies in their areas even though it makes them uncomfortable , it’s hypocritical and goes against feminism.

Where it is a legitimate aim for the protection and dignity then female bodies shouldn't be in male spaces anymore than male bodies should be in female spaces. There is no hypocracy there.

You’re missing my point entirely, I don’t need to “toughen up” so that I accept derogatory language about a group of people with “safety” and “dignity” being used an excuse

It is not an excuse. That is the absolute reason I have become engaged, very fervently, in this issue. Women have a right to the natural dignity of their sex. Being a woman is a real and lived experience. Not a feeling. How offensive to suggest otherwise.

Again. there is no derogatory language here - unless, of course, you simply cannot accept any opposition or disagreement - even when expressed in the most reasonable and articulate terms.

“If only respect went both ways....then trans people would campaign for their own spaces, wouldn't they? Especially MTFs. And some do, actually.”

So what you’re saying is it’s okay to post hateful comments about trans people because you feel some trans activists are not respectful of your rights? There’s no excuse for derogatory comments and hateful language at all, I can’t see any such posts from trans activists on here and if I did I would challenge them too, however, two wrongs don’t make a right, and if you feel they do there’s nothing left to discuss imo.

*It’s not okay, my point is you can’t claim to be a feminist, which is a movement which aims for equality between the sexes and say it’s not okay for women to have male bodies in their areas because it makes the uncomfortable, but it’s okay for men to have female bodies in their areas even though it makes them uncomfortable , it’s hypocritical and goes against feminism8

There are many variants of feminism.....and some of those variants are very much rooted in the body; in the female body, & its functions, and in respecting and valuing women and typical female , roles in society; as well as campaigning, of course, for equal opportunities for self expression of talent and ability across many fields. Feminism centres women - by definition.

I can't see the aggressive campaigns by trans men to access male spaces, myself? It is all about men accessing women's intimate spaces.

“I've never used, nor intend, derogatory language; and Mumsnet is more severe than virtually any other forum for removing anything deemed remotely offensive.

Personally , I keep mentioning that it is not just about 'safety' but more importantly about the dignity of one's sex and the feelings of comfort in intimate female spaces.

I'm afraid you are going to have to toughen up. it is perfectly legitimate to criticise, analyse and debate; especially when something is impinging on spaces hard won and valued; and necessary. Analysis in and of itself is not hatred. You can't ban discussion of legitimate subjects.”

You’re missing my point entirely, I don’t need to “toughen up” so that I accept derogatory language about a group of people with “safety” and “dignity” being used an excuse. Mumsnet certainly is not tough on this as there are many many posts on this website that are hateful and not objective “discussion of legitimate subjects”, this site is well known for allowing such posts and not acting against them.

*It’s possible to have concerns and disagree aspects of movement, such as trans rights or black rights, and still respect the group of people that movement is for8

If only respect went both ways....then trans people would campaign for their own spaces, wouldn't they? Especially MTFs. And some do, actually.

“And? Why is it ok to make women and girls extremely uncomfortable?

Men need to accommodate the full bandwidth in which males present.

It’s not up to women and girls to have hard won legal rights progressively ignored, ridiculed and erased.“

It’s not okay, my point is you can’t claim to be a feminist, which is a movement which aims for equality between the sexes and say it’s not okay for women to have male bodies in their areas because it makes the uncomfortable, but it’s okay for men to have female bodies in their areas even though it makes them uncomfortable , it’s hypocritical and goes against feminism.

You don’t see that using derogatory language to describe a whole group

I've never used, nor intend, derogatory language; and Mumsnet is more severe than virtually any other forum for removing anything deemed remotely offensive.

Personally , I keep mentioning that it is not just about 'safety' but more importantly about the dignity of one's sex and the feelings of comfort in intimate female spaces.

I'm afraid you are going to have to toughen up. it is perfectly legitimate to criticise, analyse and debate; especially when something is impinging on spaces hard won and valued; and necessary. Analysis in and of itself is not hatred. You can't ban discussion of legitimate subjects.

“I don't see that at all....what I see is the radical TRA movement pushing and pushing; demanding and demanding, and not caring one bit about the feelings of comfort and dignity of women. It is inevitable that there will be push back and radicalisation in these circumstances. It actually feels like the disregard ( & even 'hatred') is coming the other way.”

You don’t see that using derogatory language to describe a whole group of people undermines any points someone is trying to make no matter how valid they may be? I can’t take anyone’s “concerns” seriously when they’re claiming to just be worried about safety, but are referring to all trans people as “it”, constantly misgendering them and mocking their mental health problems. The hatred seeps through on some posts on here. I myself share concerns and disagree on self ID and radical trans activism, however, I don’t think that’s an excuse to disparage all trans people and justify hateful insensitive posts, which I see often on here.

It’s possible to have concerns and disagree aspects of movement, such as trans rights or black rights, and still respect the group of people that movement is for.

‘but it would make men extremely uncomfortable.’’

And? Why is it ok to make women and girls extremely uncomfortable?

Men need to accommodate the full bandwidth in which males present.

It’s not up to women and girls to have hard won legal rights progressively ignored, ridiculed and erased.

I think it's going to become a case of disabled toilets are going to end up with longer queues as it's the only place that some women will feel safe to use.
I don't blame them and if I ever felt uncomfortable in a toilet I would go to the only place I felt safe which would be the one individual toilet that is space for myself only that has a full door and lock.
Nobody should ever feel unsafe and unfortunately I feel like women are the ones that are going to suffer the most.
I fully believe there are some men and women who do genuinely believe they were born in the wrong body and want to make a change and live their life quietly in whatever body they feel most comfortable in and just get on with their life.
I also believe there are people that are taking advantage of the changes and almost enjoy causing a drama.
I'm sorry if I've used any incorrect offensive terminology- I honestly can't keep up with what is supposed to be correct and what is supposed to be offensive, which is why this is probably badly written.