Trans women in womens toilet

And there it is. It never takes long for the mask to slip

It's not evidence of transphobia to correctly sex a person when talking about them, whether here on a discussion forum or in an offline conversation where that person is not present.

And if someone is looking for, say a chair and Rebecca, who is male but identifies as trans, knows where the chairs are, then I am not going to point at Rebecca and shout "ask him" across the hall. That would be unnecessarily hurtful.

I still do not think someone who did that was transphobic (just an insensitive arsehole) because it isn't transphobic not to espouse a belief that humans can change sex.

Just as I am not Christianophobic when I don't join in the Lord's prayer at a funeral I attend. I am an atheist, I believe neither in deities nor sexed souls that reside in opposite-sex bodies. I feel compassion for those diagnosed with body dysmorphia disorders, but I am under no obligation whatsoever to agree with a sufferer of this condition that their body is wrong. Neither do I have to play along with the claim that it is, especially not on a discussion forum where we outline why doing so is harmful to a protected group I belong to.

It’s possible to have concerns and disagree aspects of movement, such as trans rights or black rights, and still respect the group of people that movement is for.

Umm no one here has concerns or disagrees with any aspects of 'black rights' - I think that's just you. Makes you sound not at all tolerant so probably best you do stop posting.

Oh what a giveaway.

That's a breach of the forum guidelines you've just used there, while making repeated accusations of things also banned under the forum guidelines and consistently moderated.

Many of us here are gay, and did that fighting for gay rights (actual rights. Not imagined hopes and wishes.) Think on why we who were there and have experienced real discrimination under law have a massive problem with what is happening with the TRA lobby. You might also like to consider that respect is a two way street.

And with that I’m out

Really? Cos I'm sure this is the second time you've left.

And just by the by, the thread you're referring to is on AIBU, not FWR. I noticed at least one plopper with a dubious post.
If you look for my user name (I'm a fairly regular FWR poster), you'll see I refuted the the 'needs to shave' and 'lippy' comments.

If you want to report posts MN will remove if needed.
A bit like your last post calling us a banned MN term. If someone was minded to report your post it'd be deleted.

I grew up thinking the job of journalists in a free society was to make sure the truth was heard.”

Well err, yes it is. Not to push an ideological agenda. It's quite telling that you repeat that quote as an example of "rampant transphobia". Did you run out?

“Third spaces are the only way forward for everyone. I'd like to see convincing reasons why that is not the case?”

and this makes it clear you’re not listening to anything I post and are just spoiling for argument, it’s all well and good trying to lecture me on how a debate works, but why don’t you try actually reading what I’ve posted before replying, it’s pretty fundamental to a healthy debate, is it not? My original post on this thread, and in numerous ones afterwards I said additional unisex facilities are the solution, yet you’ve completed ignored that. You said on Mumsnet there is no ridiculing or deriding of trans people there is just objective discussion about trans issues, I provide evidence of a thread where the trans person in question is ridiculed, constantly misgendered and there is next to no objective discussion and you make excuses for it. So either trans people are not subject to ridicule and hatred for being trans (which is transphobia) on here or they are?

Milch cows. My phone resists speaking German, dammit

I suspect that people who come onto MN to debate single issues assume that “Mumsnet” is full of under-educated mulch cows. Same old same old misogyny.

They then get a bit annoyed that actually, MN is one of the most feminist spaces on the internet, full of highly educated, literate knowledgeable women

Same old same old misogyny.

So at this point I’m not going to continue the discussion as it’s going nowhere, you’re clearly defensive about any criticism of this site if it’s content and just looking for a fight rather than genuine debate

Debate involves engaging with actual 'live' content and then countering or rejecting it using logic and reason - giving examples along the way. All you have done is repeat accusations, and then when pressed you resort to further generalised accusations that stem from discussions about this forum on other platforms.

I think people should be aware that when you come onto this forum you need to know what you are talking about, and be prepared to put in some serious work and effort to actively engage. You can't simply 'refute' and resort to the repetition of mantras.Dialogue and the furthering of communication can only happen if you engage and listen.

Women are sick of not being listened to, and their feelings, experiences and, comfort and safety being seen as equally valid, and taken seriously.

Third spaces are the only way forward for everyone. I'd like to see convincing reasons why that is not the case?

I think Bob is short-sighted in more than one way 😂

Head over to the feminism forum

This is the feminist forum, love. Says so right at the top of the page.

Female people - you're allowed to be uncomfortable, maybe, for now, but that's where it should end! Only an evil witch would express her discomfort - that's unladylike, that is.

Male people - OMG are you uncomfortable? That's terrible. And probably illegal. What can we do to fix that for you immediately? A radical reorganization of society that leads to women no longer having a right to either single sex spaces or free speech? Certainly, we'll get right on that, and yes we know that we're horrible for not having done it sooner.

Ariesscientist90 Is that the best you can come up with? The male bodied person that broke into no less than five homes of elderly and/or vulnerable people

I posted that link. It was in my local newspaper. In that particular case the trans woman was sent to a male prison.

WHERE! Where are the posts that refer to trans people as IT! I have even reread this thread and still can’t find them

The expectation is that if you repeat something enough times it becomes true; like a magic talisman; meaning you don't have to think, discuss, or do anything further.

Most people who are uncomfortable with being compelled to use 'correct' pronouns tend to use 'they' as far as I'm aware. I certainly do.

Ahhh, sorry, I didn't realise your definition of transphobia means ' you must never speak the truth'

Yes, that's it........'transphobia' and 'hatred' means discussion, analysis and comment; which may sometimes include observations that males dressed as females actually still look like, and are, male.

What we are now witnessing in society, especially with a younger generation ( & on university campuses), is an inability to tolerate disagreement, and an accompanying inability or unwillingness to debate. Disagreement therefore transmutes into 'bigotry' and 'hatred'.......and discussion is shunned.

Thing is if you cannot take on and challenge different arguments or view-points you have no chance of discrediting them. The arguments and the debate are all one way on this particular issue - and the failure to rise to the challenge is presented as a virtue.

Long term the whole thing will inevitably unravel because it has not been founded on anything other than 'feelings' and an unwillingness to deal with reality.

Arie I'd ask you for help in describing your argument further, but it looks like you've decided to opt out after flinging transphobia accusations around. (Handy for new articles 'Mumsnet is full of rampant transphobia, some people say'! Pink News alert: A poster 'Arie' described the rampant transphobia apparent across Mumsnet.)

Also, a strange interjection of 'racism' thrown in there. A lot of people have pointed out that trans activists deploy 'racism' analogies inappropriately to equate male-bodied people identifying as females with racism. And there you are.

I could find a million examples but you haven't and most of the examples are just people going 'eh, that's a male?' Truth doesn't = transphobia. I do empathise with you that the truth that many people see and describe isn't going along with what you really, really want people to say instead.

so at this point I’m not going to continue the discussion as it’s going nowhere ie I cannot provide evidence or a rational argument, therefore I'm out! I think we need a flowchart for typical TRA visitation of FWR - it's textbook!

Conscious that this is derailing original intent of thread so, like Arie, I'm out. But not for the same reasons!

It’s nothing to do with sympathy or respect, it’s to do with transphobia, if you can’t see how mocking a trans woman’s appearance and constantly misgendering them is transphobic there’s no point in this debate, is racism also justified if the comments are “true” or the person in question is a criminal? You asked for examples of misgendering and disparaging comments on here because apparently you’re all oblivious to them, I provided them and you justify it by saying “oh but it’s true”, “she isn’t trans enough and is a criminal so deserves it”. I could find a million examples and you’d always find some excuse for them, so at this point I’m not going to continue the discussion as it’s going nowhere, you’re clearly defensive about any criticism of this site if it’s content and just looking for a fight rather than genuine debate.

Surely people can’t expect them to get changed in male facilities? Not only is that incredibly dangerous for them, but it would make men extremely uncomfortable.

Oh noes. Not discomfort for men.

If you couldn’t even tell a woman was born a biological male, what would be the issue in them using women’s facilities?

We can almost always tell.

I think the obvious solution here is unisex facilities

No thank you.

Ariesscientist90 Is that the best you can come up with? The male bodied person that broke into no less than five homes of elderly and/or vulnerable people. Someone who has had absolutely no treatment to help them ‘transition’ to the ‘gender’ they identify with? They deserve more sympathy and respect than females who have genuine reason to have no wish to share spaces with that person? Really? Do you really think that person should share a prison cell with females and they should just shut up about it?

Ahhh, sorry, I didn't realise your definition of transphobia means ' you must never speak the truth'.

I also think you may never have visited other parts of Mumsnet, if you think that's specifically transphobia, not just a wide range of people having opinions, not always kind.

FFS, your examples of transphobia =“HE, is where HE belongs. end of“

"I grew up thinking the job of journalists in a free society was to make sure the truth was heard.”
You want to include those in your examples of transphobia?

easier still, google “mumsnet transphobia” and you will find a plethora of examples and articles discussing the rampant transphobia on here

Hmmm. Just did as you advised. You know, 'cos we're always being told to 'educate ourselves'. So off I went to explore and educate myself.

Despite the instructed google search, I still can't see the examples you're talking about.

It returned lots of articles either highlighting the debate as to whether Mumsnet is transphobic or not, articles reporting on complaints about Mumsnet being transphobic, or opinion pieces that Mumsnet is or isn't transphobic. But not actual examples of the actual rampant (love that hyperbolic term!) transphobia.

Although, hey, here's an article with actual examples
www.gaystarnews.com/article/nspcc-mumsnet-child-abuse-transphobia/

Which, to be honest, I'd be reluctant to draw attention to again if I was a trans-rights activist, given that it highlights some serious concerns Mumsnet users had back in 2018 trying to engage with an NSPCC webchat and flagging consent/naming body parts/boundaries etc. Concerns that the NSPCC didn't want to address. After delaying the chat, the charity pulled out of the event, before releasing this statement to Mumsnet: ‘The NSPCC doesn’t consider there to be specific child protection concerns in relation to trans-inclusive policies.

Head over to thread on the trans woman sent to a women’s prison, it’s full of posts mocking her appearance with comments such as:

“You know I can often be snippy about transwomen going overboard with make up and heels and mini-skirts after transition ‘that’s not how women dress FFS!’ is my usual reaction.

And then I see a picture of someone like Tamara and I think...hmm, well there are upsides to the over the top styles some wear. At least they’re making an effort!“

“HE, is where HE belongs. end of“

“”She” needs a shave!”

“ How can anyone earn their living writing that nonsense?

The word is "he" because "she" is quite clearly a man.

I grew up thinking the job of journalists in a free society was to make sure the truth was heard.”

That was from one thread on the first page, so please tell me there’s no transphobia on here and it’s all “sensible discussion of topics” 🙄