Trans women in womens toilet

Ereshkiga, Agrona and Prodigal, I’m sure this is great fun for you, imagining all the awful things I haven’t said and don’t think, but it’s not on to imply that I have said or think any of those things.

The poster actively defended publicly misgendering as a choice. You think that’s fine, I don’t.

I know this board struggles with people having different views. You all projecting, making stuff up and attacking me for stuff I haven’t said and don’t think is typical, and really really tiresome.

(Angry TRA drags small child to police station)

"This toddler hate crimed me!"

Terrifying situation! I wouldn't have been brave enough to ask but I suspect the lady expected the other women to side with her, and it's really shocking that they didn't.

My half brother, as a child, used to go around asking strangers if they had a penis or a vagina. I can imagine how that would go down now.

I think your use of the word "pretend" there is actually literal violence, Kittens.

I think you're meant to pretend that it literally kills people, like a bullet that shoots out of your mouth if you're rude, but only if you have a vagina.

This is an example of the minimising of misgendering that happens on a daily basis here.

She said it would be "unnecessarily hurtful" - what more do you want? Oh I forgot, total compliance, even just in unexpressed thoughts, with the tenets of gender identity ideology at all times.

It must be exhausting to constantly monitor other peoples words. It must be boring identifying offensive words, phrases or even punctuation and then reporting those offensive things.

It must be even more exhausting to try to stop people from seeing the truth and having their own thoughts because even if it is only in a persons head it causes offense.

CharleyParley, do you have an equally hard time understanding that homophobia is not literally to be scared of or disgusted by homosexual people?

The definition of homophobia is dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people on the basis of their sexuality.

The definition of transphobia is dislike of or prejudice against people who identify as trans on the basis of their trans identity.

Now I used the words "not disgusted by" and "not scared of" to express pretty much the same thing. Of course, prejudice isn't just fear but also having generally poor opinions of someone's abilities, habits, character and motivations. But a) I expressed aspects of phobias to illustrate my points, not provide you with a dictionary definition (which I have done now) and b) I did ask for your definition. So let's have it.

Danger, CP said they would not regard someone’s action of a shouted deliberate misgender in the presence of the trans person as transphobic.

Yes, because to do so would be to assume calling a male by the correct pronoun is a transphobic act under any and all circumstances. It isn't. As many trans people will tell you this can happen for a variety of reasons, few of them being motivated by transphobia. It can be an expression of transphobia, in my experience it's much more often people being insensitive (hence my calling someone who did that an insensitive arsehole).

On an interesting side note, I read a number of articles by different trans people explaining why attitudes like yours are far more damaging to trans people than being misgendered.

But if you're into policing people's speech, I guess not harming those you claim to protect is probably a secondary concern.

Danger, CP said they would not regard someone’s action of a shouted deliberate misgender in the presence of the trans person as transphobic.

Read the post if you missed that part, though I did include it in the quote.

CharleyParley, do you have an equally hard time understanding that homophobia is not literally to be scared of or disgusted by homosexual people?

This is an example of the minimising of misgendering that happens on a daily basis here

The example you quoted was a made up trans person to show what that poster wouldn't do. So it's not misgendering.
Is this another goalpost move? Already words have lost all meaning, now the goalposts keep shifting to keep us on our toes.
It's not misgendering if I meet a person who is female but is in fact two spirit. If I call them girl/woman then how is that wrong. I mean generally I call people by the name they give me but I actually dont know what one would call a two spirit person.
Is there a definition somewhere. Add pansexual and neutrois and demi boy and travesti n-b and aliagender.
And if there is some written down definition please share, also share how we tell who is what gender just by looking.
Thanks

Give me a definition of transphobia please in line with all other accepted definitions of phobias.

It is not and cannot be a phobia for someone like me who is not scared of nor disgusted by people identifying as trans, who uses preferred pronouns in the presence of a trans person so as not to upset them, to disbelieve in transgender ideology and to use pronouns for males and females correctly when talking outwith the presence of people who identify as trans.

The above statement makes no disparaging remarks about any persons who identify as trans, it does not deny them any rights others have. It simply reflects what I believe in - humans are sexually dimorphic, sex is immutable and no man can ever become a woman and vice versa.

I do not believe that the straitjacket of sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes (aka "gender") which society tries to force us into is one we are born with. There is no such thing as an innate knowledge of or adherence to sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes.

Now you are free to believe that innocent babies are born with these straitjackets already in place, that is your right, of course, and you are free to believe that humans can change sex, I won't stop you.

I simply don't agree with you.

Calling that transphobic does a disservice to the many people who identify as trans who are facing transphobia when they are denied housing, or jobs or equal opportunities or when they are harassed for being different.

Lastly, I grew up in a totalitarian state. The views you espouse here are ones I am intimately familiar with. Freedom of thought and expression are taken for granted in the UK. This is how they are lost. By activists declaring legal, factual and objective views hateful and phobic.

Being able to accurately assess someone's sex in a split second is not a crime. It's an ability that has kept human beings alive for millennia. It is not transphobic to have that ability, it's just a human thing. Everyone has it to a greater or lesser degree.

CharleyParley above said *And if someone is looking for, say a chair and Rebecca, who is male but identifies as trans, knows where the chairs are, then I am not going to point at Rebecca and shout "ask him" across the hall. That would be unnecessarily hurtful.

I still do not think someone who did that was transphobic (just an insensitive arsehole) because it isn't transphobic not to espouse a belief that humans can change sex.*

This is an example of the minimising of misgendering that happens on a daily basis here. Posters here are clear that they will play along with TGs enough to not get deleted or banned, but that’s as far as it goes.

That regular posters don’t consider this sort of posting transphobic in tone and intent is made perfectly clear. That does not in any way mean that other people will see it that way.

constantly misgendering them is transphobic
New users unaware of the rules might possibly misegender people. Those posts are quickly removed and the user pointed to threads to educate them.
Longer term posters like me, tie ourselves in funky knots so as to not misgender people. Hth

safety” and “dignity” being used an excuse

An excuse. Really you think my nieces rape is an excuse? You think all women who have been harmed by the opposite sex use an excuse?
Way to minimise what a lot of women suffer.

realise that the kind of language you’re using or justifying may be acceptable on here, however, I highly doubt you would be doing so outside of this website, in the real world where you’re not anonymous

The truth is that in the "real world" I talk about this at length to anyone and anyone who'll listen. In public toilets; in changing rooms; to staff at stores; in the check-out at Tesco......and do you know what.......most people haven't a clue about what is going on, and when they do they agree with my concerns. Especially when it comes to children......

You said on Mumsnet there is no ridiculing or deriding of trans people there is just objective discussion about trans issues

i didn't use the word 'objective'. It is impossible to be objective about such a thing. You either believe in trans ideology or you don't. I don't!

That's not to say that I don't acknowledge that some people struggle with their identity, or with feelings of wanting to escape their sex, or any other number of pressing feelings that people may have in relation to gender and expression of self. Of course, I do!
And everyone should have the same civil rights.

This is not about that, though. This is about women's spaces, services and sports. It is impossible to change sex now matter how you feel. The reason we have single sex provisions in the first place is an acknowledgement of this.

I said additional unisex facilities are the solution, yet you’ve completed ignored that

I haven't ignored that. It is perfectly clear that unisex facilities are not the answer Have you not read anything on this forum at all? If you had you will have read, time and time again, very detailed, very clearly expressed reasons why they are not the answer.

Women are genrally happy with their toilet 'arrangements' as they are ( other than there being too few in many cases). It is trans people who are unhappy. It is therefore their responsibility to campaign for the sort of provision that they would be happy with.

With the way drag queens seem to be everywhere, the questioner may have wondered if it was a bloke in drag rather than a trans woman.
I like to think I would have stepped in on her behalf but amongst a group of possibly drunk antagonists lead by an aggressive bloke, I'm not so sure unfortunately.

How flouncy is that Aries? Will you be back a third time to insult the many intelligent feminists here, plenty of whom are gay, sigh, just so that you can make another dramatic exit?

Intelligent debate is more than welcome here but throwing around insults when we don’t all do/think what you tell us isn’t going to get you anywhere is it? Why not sit quietly and consider mustering some actual facts, not opinions, and join in the debate properly?

the kind of language you’re using or justifying may be acceptable on here, however, I highly doubt you would be doing so outside of this website, in the real world where you’re not anonymous

Hmm. 'The kind of language' you mean is calling a male person 'he' or a female person 'she', is that right?

Actually, in talking to my children about their trans friends, I tend to hedge my bets with 'he or she'.

When discussing the trans child in our family, I will use their preferred pronoun if they are around, or if talking to their parent. I use their new name rather than either pronoun much of the time. But some of the older members of the family have found it bewildering and distressing to have their beloved grandchild referred to as a different name and sex, so I use birth pronouns with them.

For adult male transitioners whose families I know, I'll be guided by the family. Not going to call a child's father 'she' or 'mum' if that distresses the child, no.

I really wish that honesty all round was the preferred option. What is wrong with aiming for a world where a child can say 'Hi, this is my dad Emily, he's a transwoman but he still plays Pokemon with me'?

and realise that the kind of language you’re using or justifying may be acceptable on here, however, I highly doubt you would be doing so outside of this website, in the real world where you’re not anonymous.

Have been talking about the immutability of sex and the needs of women and girls in plain language for two years now. With pretty much everyone I meet. And have discovered that outside of trans activist circles, pretty much everyone I meet also agrees with me.

Which leads me to respectfully suggest that it's not us living in a bubble.