Trans women in womens toilet

You and others on this thread have explicitly said that you refuse to accept gender identity. That qualifies as transphobic.

Really? I guess that's too bad then. Most people are transphobic by that definition.

Hear hear LastTrainEast and despite all the claims to the contrary, there is no proof at all that gender identity exists.

What kind of man wants to make women feel like that in the first place
The ones we are trying soo hard to keep out?

"refuse to accept gender identity." there's no such thing.

There are some stereotypes which we were working on stamping out. You know "women wear dresses and heels, they cry a lot and take home economics" "men play football and wear trousers and study engineering" that kind of thing.

Those are having a revival because people are saying that liking football means you are a man and heels make you a woman.

The reality is sex which is unchanging or personality which is ever changing. Be free. Wear whatever you like and be the person you want to be.

Where have I heard something like that recently? :)

Retrofitted

I gather you missed the bit where I pointed out that Stonewall's definition is Orwellian?

Stonewall's definition is not the law btw, and it is not universally recognised either. The universally recognised definition (including by the courts across the UK) uses phrasing like this:

dislike of and prejudice against
as well as
dislike or fear of or hatred for

Disbelief is of course not included, because disbelief in an ideology cannot be used to characterise someone as phobic. To do so is, as I said before, totalitarian as well as undemocratic, extreme and oppressive.

your behaviour or views categorised as transphobic

That's ok, in my personal opinion. Several transsexuals have also been labelled as transphobic (oh the irony).

Trans Privilege Activists have turned something that should have been serious and meaningful into a silly playground insult. They have trivialised transphobia by insisting something like misgendering is sooooooooo awful and traumatic, that it makes a mockery of genuine transphobic behaviour such as aggressive threats or harassment etc that many trans people might encounter in their lives.

If a person's well-being and sense of worth is entirely dependent on everyone around them being forced to play along, including strangers, then they are going to struggle to get through life. It's not a healthy way to live in the long-term. Part of growing up is realising that people aren't always going to agree with you nor will everyone comply with your wishes; and you're not as important as you think you are that people will always remember ever little detail and preference of yours.

You and others on this thread have explicitly said that you refuse to accept gender identity. That qualifies as transphobic

It does in the world of transgender ideology......if you subscribe to it.

As someone mentioned earlier, the radical trans activists: the ones who seem aggressively intent on closing down discussion; the people who monitor and police the speech of others - are doing 'actually' dysphoric and fully transitioned transsexuals a grave disservice.

Never before have we had this clamouring for political correctness and compelled speech, and I think there are some in the trans community who believe this rather narcissistic and demanding tone is damaging the social contracts and agreements built up over time: founded on a position of negotiated trust. Not one of compulsion.

Below is an extract from a response to an article on AGP, which outlines how this aggressive policing is actually not only oppressive and totalitarian, but counter-productive too:

"The only real way for HSTS / androphilic MTFs to fight back against the colonisation of trans spaces, by aggressive autogynephiles/trans activists, is to call them out for what they are....... The best chance androphilic trans people have is actually in Asia where there are many HSTS trans women - but for the most part, they really don’t care about the political side of things, and just want to live their lives being accepted for who they are. When asked if they want to be treated as women, most of them will answer “no, I’m not a woman, I’m a ladyboy”. As problematic as some of us might find that term to be, it is literally how they themselves self-identity. Am I making this up? I’m sure that’s what the accusation will be (it usually is) , but the many trans women I’ve dated in Asia almost universally say the same thing. The problem is not wishing to be perceived as a woman, the problem is that looking like and acting like a woman is not allowed for men (which is what transwomen are) to do. The problem is not with womanhood, its with what we tell ourselves men are and are not allowed to be"

"Autogynephilia is absolutely real - I have it. I haven’t “transitioned” and won’t. I spent years trying to understand myself and wrestling with very palpable demons. Thank god for Blanchard, Bailey and particularly Lawrence for helping me to understand myself. It took far too long....... If anyone wants to understand more about this and the seriously narcisstic, delusional and bullying tactics of TIMs (trans identified males), I strongly recommend browsing r/itsafetish, r/gendercritical and observing the undeniably male entitlement on display when a TIM is triggered. they do NOT want you talking about them, because they’ve managed to hijack the - legitimate (androphilic) - trans movement"

Robust criticism of all views should be welcomed, I reckon.

Can someone please explain to me what ‘gender identity’ actually is?
I don’t see how it can be legislated for without a description, and I’ve not found an objective one yet.

you refuse to accept gender identity. That qualifies as transphobic.

Yes, that's because the definition of transphobia is bloody ridiculous.

One of my best friends is a very committed Christian. I believe that she believes in the living Christ as her Saviour and daily friend. I respect her faith but don't believe the same, and she knows that. Is that 'phobic'?

One of my extended family is transgender. I believe that she now genuinely believes herself to be a boy. I don't. I care about her just as much as ever but I don't share this particular belief. Why is that 'phobic'?

What's wrong with having one's views criticised?

“.... including denying their gender identity or refusing to accept it. “

You and others on this thread have explicitly said that you refuse to accept gender identity. That qualifies as transphobic.

Yet you don’t consider it to be transphobic in yourself or others, to deny or refuse to accept gender identity for trans people in general, or for specific individuals.

You think it’s fine to misgender people, so long as they don’t catch you doing it, and even then you would consider it to merely be rude or insensitive, not transphobic.

That’s your position and that’s your choice, but you should know that to many other people, and in our legal system, your position is not supported, and your choice may well be criticised, and your behaviour or views categorised as transphobic.

And let me just add that I am also not someone who recognises misgendering as a concept - human beings cannot change sex. Gender is a straitjacket of sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes and I do not choose pronouns based on how well that straitjacket fits you or which one you wear.

I use the pronoun that corresponds to sex unless I am required to missex someone by social constraints or consideration.

As I made clear in my example.

What is obvious from this thread is that certain people are convinced that not believing in transgender ideology equals transphobia. Which is a totalitarian response to dissent.

On the anniversary of Orwell's death it is chilling to note that this is also Stonewall's official definition: refusing to accept someone's gender identity is transphobic.

(P.S. the full Stonewall definition of transphobia reads as follows: The fear or dislike of someone based on the fact they are trans, including denying their gender identity or refusing to accept it. I wonder if the poster who criticised my use of fear and disgust will also inform Stonewall that their definition is inadequate?)

I’ve noted your last post Michelle and shall probably have cause to use it in the future. I’m starting to open up discussions with women whom I meet in daily life because it’s frightening how many are still unaware of the ongoing erasure of our hard-won rights. You have a gift for explaining things clearly and succinctly. Thank you.

Agree Michelle.

The poster actively defended publicly misgendering as a choice

Look up the old phrase 'force me to the discourtesy'. It has a long history, for the same reason. One person within a social contract can put the other person in a situation where it is no longer reasonable to expect them to not speak a truth that may be something the hearer does not want to hear.

Other people have rights too. It is not the job of females to unconditionally protect and be kind to those with no intention of treating them with the same standards of care.

I'm the same as you Last. And I'm not 100% comfortable with this as a biology believing woman because i don't think it's the truth.

Whilst I will not be mean to someone on purpose IRL I do not believe TWAW. I'm talking to DD 11 these days about what she is legally entitled to in school in terms of changing rooms, toilets and competitive opportunities. My sitting on the fence this way whilst encouraging her to not accept her boundaries being respected I realise is a big contradiction

some people simply don't accept or recognise the whole concept of 'misgendering' that would include me (I'm a man if it matters) and quite a lot of the people I know.
Not that any of us will be chasing someone down the street calling them names. That would just be mean.

If introduced to a man by someone who said "This is Sally, She's visiting" I'd probably go along with it out of politeness, but don't expect me to go around reading tiny badges.

I'm shocked about the woman being dragged out because she didn't want to share a toilet with a man. What kind of man wants to make women feel like that in the first place.

In the same way as our rights are being removed now, trans rights will be taken away when they are no longer useful.

I identify as a person who experiences extreme and genuine dysphoria upon finding male human beings in the women's toilets

The poster actively defended publicly misgendering as a choice

what you fail to see or acknowledge is that some people simply don't accept or recognise the whole concept of 'misgendering' - seeing as it belongs to a whole ideology they reject.

That is not to say, in terms of personal, one to one interaction, that those same people would always refuse to use 'correct' pronouns. I'm sure most of us are aware and sensitive enough to gauge a situation for ourselves, and make judgments and decisions accordingly.

What people will not do, however, is be compelled to speak in certain ways so as to as to confirm an ideology with which they are in disagreement.

It's not transphobia to expect a female only space to actually be, a female only space, and to take some kind of action when you see that not only females are in that space.

This sort of thing is one of the reasons why women don't say anything. It's not because women can't tell.

The poster actively defended publicly misgendering as a choice.

I didn't defend it as a choice, I disagreed with your assertion than an act of public misgendering is always motivated by transphobia.

I’m sure this is great fun for you, imagining all the awful things I haven’t said and don’t think

I believe psychologists refer to this as "projection".