Trans women in womens toilet

Again, you are talking about imposed beliefs and ideas, rather than the felt and experienced reality of the situation.

I think I understand what you mean but disagree that the latter is entirely objective. My aim wasn't to debate your beliefs but rather to suggest that understanding why other (biological) women might not have the same reaction to a transwoman in the ladies could be the first step to arriving at an agreeable outcome.

I was reading an interesting article on the alternative right a few days ago, it described the sociopolitical power of "weaponised" empathy in terms of aligning concerns and how it is much more effective in terms of producing movement of opinion than "weaponised" shame. In this context, the objectivity of your (not you specifically) beliefs is nearly meaningless if they are fundamentally at odds with the beliefs of the person you're trying to garner support from.

Many women, and many young women may not remember, nor have experienced the times when women were not treated equally in law

I work in a hard STEM field, I can definitely remember being pushed back from progressing with my studies (and early career) because it was something 'for boys' in the 70s and 80s.

I'm transsexual (other way round than this woman though)..

No,

That should definitely not be happening. The trans woman has a right to use the female toilet but being aggressive towards those uncomfortable is not okay. It's tricky because a man could walk in claiming to be a trans woman when he very clearly isn't.

Also, what the woman asked about if she was male or female isn't transphobia. Although it does hurt trans people's feelings, that doesn't give the trans person the moral right to get aggressive.

In an ideal situation, the trans woman could've used the toilet without it being a big deal to anyone. But in this case, the woman who got taken out really shouldn't have been. She didn't commit a crime and she has the right to use the toilet no more than the trans woman does.

But as I said, it's tricky.

Nice bit of masculine-socialised behaviour there

Can you imagine a young trans man in the male toilets being confronted and reacting in that way? I certainly can't!

transwomen became very aggressive shouting and pointing in the womens face

Nice bit of masculine-socialised behaviour there.

Sorry, I mean that they believe transwomen should be treated the same as genetic women

Again, you are talking about imposed beliefs and ideas, rather than the felt and experienced reality of the situation. Everyone knows a man cannot and does not menstruate, require a cervical smear, carry a baby, give birth and so on......Men cannot 'be treated' the same as women, because they are not women.

Many women, and many young women may not remember, nor have experienced the times when women were not treated equally in law.......it wasn't that long ago........in the lives of most of us here.

*whore. Sex Offenders Act 2003 England
(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,

(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and

(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

(3)Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.

(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life. *

Yep - man commits rape - key words in legislation suggesting that it is a male crime is ‘he’ ‘his’ ‘penis’.

Men rape men. Men rape women. Women don’t.

Most victims of sexual assault / rape are women and girls.

No one denies women can commit sexual assault.

Useful article for you to read - implying under reporting (still clear minority) of women committing sexual assault and using a man identifying as woman as their example.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/truth-female-sex-offenders/amp/

It's quite possible that, if asked, they would say that chromosomes don't matter to them

That might be the politically correct right think, yes.......

But the reality of male bodies in intimate female spaces goes beyond that.....it's nature's way.

No, they don't! Everyone, instinctively, knows the difference.

Sorry, I mean that they believe transwomen should be treated the same as genetic women, not that they are completely unable to visually distinguish.

I imagine they view transwomen as women

No, they don't! Everyone, instinctively, knows the difference. What it is is a combination of fear of being subject to aggressive out -burst, or attack, oneself...and a desire to be 'nice' and not hurt anyone's feelings.Aligned with a mind that has been colonised and told what to think, and that tells them their instincts should be over-ridden.

Cultural gas lighting.

Bet every single one of them could tell this was a male

It's quite possible that, if asked, they would say that chromosomes don't matter to them or hold a lower priority. What I meant by my initial response was that framing their responses as 'supporting males' doesn't seem to me to help with leading to a mutual understanding and, hopefully, acceptable compromise in the future.

So all the lecturing on 'intersectionality' was just a lot of hot air wasn't it?

Sadly yes disabled, traumatised women and women of a faith or culture where they are unwilling to share a space with someone with a male body are excluded.

What about adult women who have sex with male children (which is incredibly common - I've lost count of male friends who say their first sexual experience happened as a child with an adult woman)?

Statistically it's not common at all. In fact it's really quite rare (2% of sexual offences are perpetrated by women).

And it goes without saying: many of those excluded females will be excluded because of trauma, disability, race, culture and faith.

So all the lecturing on 'intersectionality' was just a lot of hot air, wasn't it?

That poor woman. And yes that person rather proved the point. We really need to make women more aware of their rights here, via Schedule 3, section 27, subsection 6 equality act:

"(6) The condition is that—

(a) the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and

(b) the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex."

Here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3/part/7/crossheading/singlesex-services

I imagine they view transwomen as women.

Bet every single one of them could tell this was a male and reacted exactly the same as they would faced with any other intimidating male.

This is the reality of it.

Males can enter any female space at will, and at all times have the freedom of two spaces they can choose between.

Some females will be fine with it, and prioritise the protection and nurture of those males, without being able to reflect on what this says.

Other females, who cannot tolerate this, will be bullied, harassed and ridiculed if they try to protest, and effectively a significant percentage of the female population will stop being able to enter or use female spaces. Meaning access to no spaces at all, to provide some males with freedom of choice.

From those with the guts to acknowledge this, this is regarded as a fair punishment to those females for failing to properly prioritise and serve the males involved. Politicians largely close their eyes to this bit.

Third spaces - you get wails and howls about lower class facilities and feeling othered. Please for the love of God, give third spaces then to those excluded females who will have nothing at all otherwise. Call it whatever you want. I don't honestly care if you call it the die in a fire/piece of shit space. Just give me somewhere I can pee or change.

Why are some women so keen to support males and not other women?

I imagine they view transwomen as women.

I hope this incident will be properly logged somewhere? Is there a place to record the intimidation of natal born women and girls (how I hate having to write that 🤬) in public lavatories?

A woman can be legally guilty of the crime of rape if she assists a rapist with a common purpose.

All rapists are men. Women can sexually assault but cannot rape.

come on, do you really think that only adult men can commit rape?

In the U.K., yes, due to the technicality of the law which specifies penetration with a penis.

The point about recorded cases of “women” having committed rape is that it is a clear signifier that men are committing crimes that are being recorded as “women’s crimes” and included in women’s statistics. Which means we no longer have clear information on crime sex statistics.

As for the transwoman in the toilets, it demonstrates that women have been very well schooled into accepting men are very much allowed to be aggressive when women challenge them on certain issues, this being one of them.

That is such a horrible situation, women being silenced and attacked for trying to voice a concern.

By law only a penis can rape

The legal definition of rape is “penetration with a penis”. So yes, only men can rape.

A woman charged with penetrating someone or sleeping with an underage boy would be guilty of sexual assault.

Legally in the UK, rape involves the rapist’s penis, so is limited to males. Anything else is sexual assault.

And the percentage of biological women who commit sexual assault is tiny.