Q - what is it exactly,

Can a heterosexual (not including a trans partner) couple class themselves as Queer?

Enby = non-binary. It's a cute way of writing 'NB'.
Oh

Ace is asexual.
Enby and NB and non-binary are the same.

'Queer' is usually not straight, though a relationship of a pre-everything trans woman and a woman, through one lens is "heterosexual" but "queer" through another.

Enby = non-binary. It's a cute way of writing 'NB'.

Ok, google says 'ace'= asexual, is that right?

'Enby'= isn't strictly masculine or feminine

'Non binary'= isn't strictly masculine or feminine.

Is there a difference between non binary and enby or just two names for the same things?

So, to be Queer you have to not fit gender stereotypes/roles and be not be heterosexual?

It reads like other posters were saying Queer can also be straight. Which is right?

I'm an idiot about this stuff so thank you for replying btw.

@TwitcherOfCurtains I see it as bi/gay/pan/ace when referring to sexuality and enby/trans/agender when referring to gender identity. Anything that isn't hetero or identifying with the gender you were assigned at birth (I know you don't like that phrase but I'm trying not to use c*s)

I've read the thread and am no clearer about what Queer is.

As far as I understand:

Heterosexual= same sex attracted
Homosexual=opposite sex attracted
Bisexual= attracted to both sexes
Pansexual=attracted to both sexes and trans people

Queer= anyone who wants a label?

Genuinely not understanding. Why no clear, simple definition (or did I miss it?)?
Does Queerphobia exist? If it does then there must be a simple definition somewhere.

@BovaryX that particular excerpt was talking about a lyric 'maybe in a year//I will not feel like a bad queer' - it's reflecting on their own experience and self doubt. I really like the interview but I adore Adult Mom!

There are a lot of people that have these lines of what you’re supposed to be as a queer person, which I always thought was crazy. That’s the point of queer — that it’s fluid and confusing and can be used as an identifier. So I was feeling not particularly queer enough, especially because I wasn’t out to my parents at that time. I’ve been in relationships with cis men, mostly, and I felt a little stigmatized — that I’m non-binary and pansexual, but I’m not a lesbian but I’m also not a girl. But I don’t feel like a bad queer anymore

This reminds me of Douglas Murray's take on Judith Butler et al

Prose this bad can only occur when the author is trying to hide something

What's with the deliberate, tortured lack of clarity?

Ben is gender non-conforming and has used GNC in her youtube channel name
www.youtube.com/c/gnc-centric

Pretty much, yeah. Still is an insult for some people.

I don't call myself queer because it doesn't fit me. It comes with all sorts of politics and aesthetics which just aren't me at all.

Isn't it, "queer" used to be an insult, a slur, against LGB people, so the LGB community started using "queer" as a non-insult between themselves, so it was "reclaimed" by the community in that sense. (I say this as a bi woman btw)

No idea what "queer" theory is mind you. Probably has to do with being bad at art and good at talking shite, and having brightly coloured hair.

The Q in lgbtabcdetc isn't to do with queer theory it's to do with identity and sexuality.

@HorseWithNoTimeforThis

In "our" culture, (though that's not the culture I'm living in right now, so I can't think of a lot of examples) it's been a bit harder to be gender non-conforming as there's little risk involved so most people are reasonably free to behave and dress as they wish.

There are some women like Hannah Gadsby and Abby McEnany who dress in a 'masculine' style.

There are some men like Grayson Perry and Ru Paul who dress in a 'feminine' style.

All four do so with mixed reception (from arseholes).

Queer or questioning, i.e. people who aren't sure. I personally hate the term queer as bullies called me that in school.

I can stomach the Q but what I really hate is the A, which comes from the recent trend of asexuals trying to lump themselves in with LGBT people. The use of LGBTQIA in certain contexts is inappropriate. No, LGBTQIA people are not being persecuted in Chechnya, no-one is killing asexuals. Trump is not going to institute any policies that affect asexuals. Asexual people were not targeted in the Holocaust. And so on.

And don't get me started on demisexuals. Ugh.

Thank you, fiestar.

Every culture has traditions and expectations of how males and females should present themselves.

Would you be kind enough to give just a couple of examples of how, in our culture, men and women might present themselves in a way that would be regarded as unambiguously "gender non conforming"?

And is it just about presentation or could behaviour be a factor?

Thank you.

How gender non-conforming does someone have to be to qualify as queer? DH made dinner yesterday, and a birthday cake for today. Is that GNC? He washed and tidied up as he went along if that helps?

Sure I can @HorseWithNoTimeForThis !
Every culture has traditions and expectations of how males and females should present themselves.

Gender non conforming people either ignore those expectations and do their own thing or go all in with the opposite sexes' for that culture.

So, it would be different in Victorian Britain or modern India or ancient Ethiopia what that would look like, what behaviours it might include, what items of clothing it could involve, how risky it might be etc etc

My mum (50s teen) still says 'queer' to mean a homosexual man, but the word has shifted.

I'm very suspicious about 'pan' - a teen I know says she has friends who are pan, which I think is the safe option, 'go away and leave me alone I'm whatever you think is ok', a 2020 teen safe space.

The problem is, it could so easily include paedophilia. It does mean 'everything'.

I do not understand how you can be non-conforming by conforming to something.

Suspect this is the time-old phenomenon of each new generation concluding that it has just invented sex, something its parents could never possibly have engaged in.

@OneEpisode I never really came out to anyone as I never felt the need, then I got to the point with people that I was open about who I fancied so I didn't define myself with a label for other people, just trying to make sense of myself. I've always said my sexuality is I like who I like, doesn't really matter what they are

I wouldn't use the N word myself because I'm white and don't think it's my place to say it, even if people have reclaimed it it's not for me to say. But in the same way I feel it's ok to describe myself as queer as that is part of me. I would never call anyone else that though, I think it's a very personal choice.
@OneEpisode I'm not sure I would, I feel queer defines me better than bi but maybe my perspective would be different if there was less biphobia though, I don't know if that would be different

Oft times when privileged white people want to identify into a struggle for civil rights they "reclaim" a pejorative term that has been used against the people who were discriminated against.
Most young people who identify as liberal are ignorant of history so they have no qualms about calling one another the N word or the Q word.
Older people who lived the struggle would not dream of insulting one another in such a cruel fashion.

Hi Cat i’m pretty old so I can’t remember. So do you think if you felt safer to say so, you’d say you were bi? But at the moment, queer seems safer to say?

@OneEpisode that could be a facet, but also I think people know (or at least can have an idea) about who they're attracted to without having sex. Personally, I was a very sexually charged teenager, but with no outlet. Found people attractive regardless of gender and felt uncomfortable calling myself bi - I didn't want people to think I wasn't bi enough and I felt it fitted with me. I don't announce it to anyone but it's how I describe myself to myself

This came up on another thread so I googled to see what Stonewall said. Not that they own the word but because they have politicised it.

Anyway this is there definition:

Queer is a term used by those wanting to reject specific labels of romantic orientation, sexual orientation and/or gender identity. It can also be a way of rejecting the perceived norms of the LGBT community (racism, sizeism, ableism etc). Although some LGBT people view the word as a slur, it was reclaimed in the late 80s by the queer community who have embraced it.

Also worth listening to speech by Selina Todd at WPUK meeting in which she talks about how queer politics took over universities. Very important as it was this that started the back lash against Women's Studies etc., which lead to the concept of "gender studies". And it is all the students from this era of university education who are now in positions of power and influence, eg politics and media. (The editor of the Guardian has stated that queer politics influence all her decisions so presumably the Guardian is an example of queer politics in practice. )