Q - what is it exactly,

@Xanthangum well I am a bisexual woman who has never had a lesbian experience (well there was a sort of date, but it didn't go anywhere). I know who I am and I know who I'm sexually attracted to. I also know I'm fed up of people telling me whether I can be bi or not...

I'm not queer though, can't get past the way it was used when I was in school alongside other terms of abuse like fag, lezzie and so on.

@Xanthangum Are you saying you agree that one has to have had a relationship with the same sex then to be considered bisexual? Or is it just a comment on Brett - he was very OTT, in many ways the 90s Morrissey

I can remember the backlash that Brett Anderson got nearly 30 years ago for coming out with the fatuous "I'm a bisexual man who has never had a homosexual experience" line. He was, quite rightly, attacked for the sexual equivalent of cultural appropriation.

Seems that's ok now, though. Qs all round.

Grol I know! One of mine was proclaiming he was the only bi person in the family (in a ridiculously "only gay in the village" way, the daft sod). I raised and eyebrow and said "No, you really aren't love." His face was hilarious

@GrolliffetheDragon I know, it's so stupid. You know who you're attracted to! It's not that hard 😂

There used to be that term "bi-curious", didn't there? I think that describes the two women I'm talking about here. One of them I've known a long time and she's never been in a relationship with a woman, she's just theoretically open to the idea.

Before I had a relationship with a man I knew I found men attractive. I've not had a relationship with a woman but I know, in the same way I did about men, that I find women attractive. I've found both attractive since I started noticing that sort of thing.

Does anyone insist that straight people can't be straight if they've not had sex yet? Or is it just Bi people who have to prove themselves in that way?

The Q stands for 'Queer'. Most people who describe themselves as queer, as opposed to gay or lesbian, are just straight people who want to be edgy.

Cat I appreciate the reply but I guess I'm too old for this stuff, I still don't really get it.

I think everyone is either a man or a woman (once an adult) - that's a biological descriptor, where as enby and agender are identities. Man/woman is what you are, not who you are (like your age, height, etc, it's just a description of your physical being). So a bi person would be attracted to male/men and females/women and so would pansexuals, wouldn't they? Or do you feel that bisexual people wouldn't be attracted to someone identifying as enby?

I'm sorry if I seem obtuse, I'm honestly not trying to be.
I don't really understand how sexuality and identity got conflated (enby isn't a sexuality as I understand it?)

House - Isn't GNC just a descriptive phrase? Like "Boy George is gender non-conforming while Bruce Springsteen conforms to many masculine stereotypes."

Fiestar

Do you happen to know if the people you have mentioned above describe themselves as GNC?

Or is it OK ascribe GNC to a person?

Hey Nonny, thank you for that link, that's a really interesting analysis of Butler. I like the way Nussbaum calls Butler's audience ^bullied readers! Both Murray and Nussbaum draw a similar conclusion that the impenetrability of Butler's text is cover for the incoherence of her analysis. Why is she so influential?

@Arthritica pansexual means you find someone attractive regardless of sex/gender - that's not part of the attraction - whereas bisexual would be two of them, traditionally men and women though I know some people who call themselves bisexual and are attracted to women or men and enby or agender people. Don't worry - paedophillia and bestiality aren't included, I wouldn't agree with child abuse or animal cruelty!

lol, mockers..

Would Demisexual+ be Demi More?

queef

Thank you @loopsdefruit, that’s a little clearer. I appreciate your taking the time.

Any word on how Pan differs from Bi?

Thanks for the recommendation, BovaryX. I shall have a look at his latest book. :)

If you're interested in an academic takedown of Judith Butler, I'd recommend a paper by Martha Nussbaum published in 1999 called 'The Professor of Parody'.
I couldn't find a direct link to the PDF, but found an online version of the file I downloaded a while ago.

perso.uclouvain.be/mylene.botbol/Recherche/GenreBioethique/Nussbaum_NRO.htm

@TwitcherOfCurtains I think it can bring a sense of community, but just in the same way being a Labour Party Member, going to a Billy Bragg gig, going to a protest or exchanging cat photos with a friend does. I personally think it's unhealthy to invest wholly in one thing, but also could be indicative of mental health etc. - not that I'm qualified to diagnose, just my own experience of being focussed on my depression and that becoming the only part of my personality I recognised. People need a range of interests and communities.
As for the different genders, I don't know what a lot of them mean but I think if they help a person to feel more comfortable with themselves and help them understand themselves it's not a bad thing.

Just trying to clarify the difference between ace/demi and choosing not to have sex/not wanting sex.

Asexual people do not experience sexual attraction. So for example if you are a fully heterosexual woman you are not sexually attracted to other women, asexual people do not experience sexual attraction at all to anyone.

Demisexual is the same principle but that person can develop sexual attraction to specific people once they have a close bond with that person. So again using the heterosexual woman example, you are not attracted to other women but you suddenly develop feelings for certain women after becoming very close (emotionally) with them.

It's also not a choice, that's celibacy, and it's nothing to do with sex-drive/libido...which can be high or low in an asexual/demisexual person just as it can in a person of any sexuality.

Many ace/demi people also describe themselves in terms of their romantic attraction (who they fall in love with) and this can be same sex as themselves, different, both, or neither.

Because homoromantic asexual or heteroromantic demisexual is a bit long-winded many ace/demi people will use either queer or gay/lesbian/bi instead although as gay/lesbian/bisexual specifically refer to the sexuality of a person queer is often preferred as it's more accurate to the 'real' sexuality/romantic orientation of the person.

So ace/demi are expressions of who you are attracted to not what you want to do with them/how much you want to do it.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

I think there's even a movement to drop all the letters from LGBTQIA down to Q but it's not getting much traction because so many English speaking countries still see the word "queer" as an unforgiveable slur

I cannot adequately express how much I hope this never gains any traction and slides all the way down into oblivion.

Very recently I was asked if I was LGBTQ, and I've been trying to formulate why I dislike it some much. Firstly, because it's ridiculously cumbersome. No, I am not B, I am not T, so I am not LGBTQ.
But then I unpacked it some more and I realized the Q stands for Queer, and that person was saying 'Are you queer?' and my god, the realization hit me in the gut with the offence of it. I know they meant it in an entirely wokey nice way, but it's like listening to elderly relatives talking about the P*ki shop or the darkies or saying that Craig Revel Horwood is a poof. They don't mean it in a consciously nasty way either, they're using the words out of habit, familiarity and ignorance. But it's still genuinely awful to hear, and if someone were ever to say to me at work 'Are you queer?' I actually think I'd raise a grievance, however inclusively terminologied up they thought they were being.

Gay men joshing about with each other, using certain anti-gay slur terms is one thing, and actually, I think it speaks of a deep wounded sense of defiance in the face of rejection. It's not a cue to take that slur and apply it to a vaguely defined group, many of whom will have had it used, accompanied by intimidation and violence against them.

When I google Grayson Perry and Ru Paul , I don’t see images that look feminine . I’ve never seen a woman who looks anything like 99% of these photos.

The clothes, hair and make up might be colourful /creative / striking, but the don’t look like a woman.

So are you saying that identifying as Queer gives you a sense of belonging/community ACatWhoBinds? I don't think that's a bad thing and can sort of see it from that view point.
(Have you though of joining a church? Not only do you get a sense of community but FREE, yes FREE tea and biscuits! )

Btw, what do you think of genders such as Novigender?

Fiestar, thank you for taking the time to answer.

There are some women like Hannah Gadsby and Abby McEnany who dress in a 'masculine' style.

There are some men like Grayson Perry and Ru Paul who dress in a 'feminine' style.

Do you happen to know if the people you have mentioned above describe themselves as GNC?

Or is it OK ascribe GNC to a person?

Look at Mockers appropriating from dead Romans who can’t defend their own terms..

NB is nota bene. Something we all had to learn to use when practising academic writing, back when that was a thing.