Julie Bindel bullying Posie

And how many will abandon their left wing roots and go full on right wing, overlooking and brushing the negatives of right wing politics

I am not left wing, although I respect the articulate, passionate left wing posters on here. The main political divide is between left wing authoritarian zealots. And everyone else. You have demonstrated repeatedly on this board your alignment. With your non stop parade of logical fallacies and ad hominems. You don't get it, do you? The paradigm has shifted and the #no debate control left isn't working. Anymore

Politics is far more nuanced than that. I used to vote Labour, but Labour has totally lost its way. It has deserted the working class and embarked on a crusade of identity politics, favouring minorities over the vast majority

Well said. But you can't expect nuance from someone who has so far invoked Prince Andrew, Donald Trump, Epstein in her ongoing efforts to denounce PP....

^And how many will abandon their left wing roots and go full on right wing, overlooking and brushing the negatives of right wing politics^

What the hell are you talking about. My political territory is centre right, small state, social responsibility.

I have friends on the left, and though I respect their views, have little idea how they come to the conclusions that they do. However I am prepared to listen as long as they are willing to listen to me.

The nature of the debate has changed over the past few years. It has become much nastier, simplistic and divided. If you dont agree with the orthodoxy you are wrong, racist, phobic, fascist or whatever. Most people are not perfect but also not deserving of the venom aimed at them. They are tired of it. They worry that the cheerleaders, by not allowing proper debate, are allowing gaps in safety, safeguarding and more.

I am completely onside with Lang and Bovary in relation to the dangers of self ID and the need to protect women and girls. I dont expect for a minute that this means we agree on much else. However I do think we could have a lively, intelligent and respectful discussion.

Your posts come across as patronising as if allowing us discussion as long as you find it sufficiently interesting. Where are you coming from politically and why dont you join in rather than plop aloof and critical comments. Is there a reason why you think that you are better than other posters, or indeed better than the interesting and courageous women who are putting themselves out there.

"And how many will abandon their left wing roots and go full on right wing, overlooking and brushing the negatives of right wing politics."

I totally refute that statement, because it bears comparison to the words of George W Bush before the Iraq war - "You are either with us or against us"
Politics is far more nuanced than that. I used to vote Labour, but Labour has totally lost its way. It has deserted the working class and embarked on a crusade of identity politics, favouring minorities over the vast majority.
James Keir Hardie and Ramsay Macdonald must be turning in their graves.

As a guy, I think Posie is one of the most visible and brave women, putting herself firmly in the public eye. She presents herself with dignity and is an excellent speaker. She never loses her temper, unlike some of the people and interviewers.

I do agree the left have underestimated the strength of feeling many women have about the GRA reforms. And how many will abandon their left wing roots and go full on right wing, overlooking and brushing the negatives of right wing politics.

Who watched the BBC drama Years and Years? If Posie Parker ever did go into actual politics (God help us) it would remind me of the Vivienne Rook character. Voted in for her charisma and plain speaking and supposed concern for ordinary people but in actual fact a lot more sinister. The scary thing about that drama is I can really see it happening in the UK and soon.

www.bustle.com/p/is-vivienne-rook-based-on-a-real-person-the-years-years-character-may-feel-a-little-close-to-home-17872106

And the way I see it, I still am left wing. Give me a materialist leftist policy platform, and I'll vote for it. I won't be voting for a bunch of bougie authoritarian cult-of-selfists any time soon though

I should add, dear monitors, that while this is a negative generalisation, it is my analysis of middle class liberal politics, and has nothing to do with trans people. HTH.

And the way I see it, I still am left wing. Give me a materialist leftist policy platform, and I'll vote for it. I won't be voting for a bunch of bougie authoritarian cult-of-selfists any time soon though

It's interesting how many posters on here say they used to be left wing

And the way I see it, I still am left wing. Give me a materialist leftist policy platform, and I'll vote for it. I won't be voting for a bunch of bougie authoritarian cult-of-selfists any time soon though.

I agree with Lang and needmore, there has been a paradigm shift, the political landscape has changed. Like Generals fighting the last war, many politicos haven't realized this yet. The critical issue is the conflict between the fanatical authoritarianism on the left. And everyone else.

It's interesting how many posters on here say they used to be left wing. Those posters haven't changed. They have been abandoned. The identity politics idiocy which has colonised the illiberal liberal establishment will continue to cause Labour to shed voters like a desert cat sheds its fur in summer. And the usual ad hominems and the sloppy shrieking of 'far right' when anyone mentions an inconvenient fact? That doesn't work. Anymore.

Oo interesting - we're back to America colonising the www! That's not sarcasm btw, I genuinely like to read about it.

Also an aside, but can I just say how funny it is to read the sentence "The Fat Controller makes a very important point"

The whole concept we now have of 'liberal-left' has been lifted straight out of an American narrative, as far as I can see. What we might term 'left' is termed 'liberal' in the U.S...but the U.S tradition doesn't have the same class based/materialist analysis that the left does in Europe.

That's how it seems to me, anyway. the left has become all about individualism and liberalism U.S style. Even before any post Brexit trade deals, we've been colonised.

I concur.

What the transgender movement has brought into very sharp focus is that misogyny is endemic. It has no respect for class, colour, creed or politics. Men just don't see women as equals as a class

As I see it, people are so befuddled by right and wrong think, and being seen to be politically correct, that the radical TRA movement has been able to sail in under the radar.....free from question or scrutiny. Many people don't know what to think, so they just choose to think or support the 'correct' thing.

That the Beaumont Society, which used to be an organisation founded for cross dressing men and their long suffering wives, is now a fully fledged transgender organisation; and that the concept of what being transgender is, and means, has been so stretched that it now includes a whole raft of quite diverse people - is lost on the general public.......They've no idea.

My feeling is that the whole TRA movement is being manipulated by a certain demographic within that community - those, usually male, with social power, authority and wherewithal - for their own ends; even if it means that vulnerable young women & children get caught up in the net, at substantial cost to themselves.

That and the power of the big American pharmaceuticals looking for new markets. And, of course, the popularity on American university campuses for imposing queer theory onto absolutely everything...so that students are being led to have to read even Shakespeare through a post-modernist/queer lens.......

And if you need authoritarianism, witch hunting, censorship and denunciation to impose your version of "liberalism" - well, liberal, it ain't

The whole concept we now have of 'liberal-left' has been lifted straight out of an American narrative, as far as I can see. What we might term 'left' is termed 'liberal' in the U.S...but the U.S tradition doesn't have the same class based/materialist analysis that the left does in Europe.

That's how it seems to me, anyway. the left has become all about individualism and liberalism U.S style. Even before any post Brexit trade deals, we've been colonised.

I still say I have been following Posie in various ways online and off and seen her challenge some very scary ideology for women constantly and intelligently. She has actually done it, put herself in the firing line and raised money to make things happen. Not just bitched on Mumsnet. Whatever her short comings she is actually showing up for women!!

I now understand why she says she is not a feminist because of this thinking and behavior. Never mind that she was a member of the Labour Party and has never voted Tory. This issue matters to everyone though, it’s much bigger than party.

And comparing her to Trump, Prince Andrew and Epstein?!? That’s exactly the same behavior isn’t it?

It’s this nonsense that is preventing Labour getting elected. Attacking the people that get things accomplished and are taking all the heat for not fitting in a predetermined box. Maybe it’s because she doesn’t fit stereotypes that she is successful and reaches so many people, women and men? I refuse to stop admiring her and supporting her.

The Fat Controller makes a very important point - for many women being gender critical is not about feminism but about protecting children from harm. These feminists presuming that others are just 'bad' at doing feminism is entirely missing the point. Many women aren't motivated in this way

This. I guess if we had an "ism," (let's say "kidism") for those gender critics motivated by wanting to protect kids from things like school induced gender confusion, medical intervention, loss of privacy, exposure to "queering," enforced gender roles, etc. it could, unlike "feminism" uncontroversially include men.

But we (I'd consider myself a "kidist") would still be accusing each other of doing "kidism" wrong.

As far as I'm concerned the old, predictable left-right polarity has now broken down

I think so too, though I would say breaking down, better late than never. At the same time, I see increased partisianship on both sides, it looks like some are clinging to the polarity, and are becoming more depressingly predictable than ever.

All this back and forth about whether Posie said trans people should be sterilized is so tedious. She hasn't actually sterilized anyone has she?

You know who has? Medical professionals who are prescribing cross sex hormones to children and young adults. So which is the worst crime? Saying someone should be sterilized or actually fucking doing it?

What the transgender movement has brought into very sharp focus is that misogyny is endemic. It has no respect for class, colour, creed or politics. Men just don't see women as equals as a class.

I honestly had no idea quite how little respect t they had for us until the GRA consultation. It's been quite the eye opener.

Lang, identity politics and culture wars seem to be creating all sorts of new divisions. And impacts, like 'blue labour', Boris's storming of the red wall and probably Trumps reelection in the US.

Why are previously Labour/Democrat voters voting for Boris and Trump. They will not have changed. The change has been in their ability to trust left wing politicians.

Why? Are they decent people simply sick of 'woke' or are people, including a few posters up thread, right in suggesting it is because their closet racism/transphobia/whatever is showing.

Douglas Murray has addressed this and inspired a rather good discussion on the board. Trevor Philips, the former Commissioner for Racial Equality had a go in the Mail today, though unfortunately a rather rambling article addressing Meghan and the allegations of racism and comparing to the tensions around Brexit.
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7900563/amp/Just-Britain-healing-new-cultural-war-raging-Megxit-insists-TREVOR-PHILLIPS.html

Someone cleverer than me will have the language and clarity. However I am confident that my own GC views are not based on being left wing or right wing, race, religion, phobia or hate. Live and let live, but protect our children, protect vulnerable people, and allow my voice to be heard and my rights to be equal to those of others.

And if other posters choose to accuse me, in the way they accuse Posie, Caro, Julie and others. Well they are wrong...and rude.

It appears to have gone from the liberal vs conservative economic dispute to the Libertarian vs authoritarian dispute.
Somehow it always ends up with men arguing over how to position the boot on women's neck.

Those of us who have moved from identifying as being on 'the left' to a position where we now no longer have anyone we can vote for indicates that times are changing.

Political vacuums are dangerous but they will be filled. There's always a crisis when we move from one political era to the next - and "the left" needs to get its materialist boots on fast otherwise it will be the main casualty.

And if you need authoritarianism, witch hunting, censorship and denunciation to impose your version of "liberalism" - well, liberal, it ain't.

As far as I'm concerned the old, predictable left-right polarity has now broken down, irretrievably, for most free thinking people. Life is far more complex and nuanced than can be squeezed into pre-fabricated forms.
Those of us who have moved from identifying as being on 'the left' to a position where we now no longer have anyone we can vote for indicates that times are changing.

So bored of the predicable 'bigot', 'phobe', and so on..... accusations from those who can't think for themselves and who identify 'primarily' as part of some tribe. Things get far more interesting when you break out of the box. I can like and agree with some of the views expressed by people from a whole range of backgrounds and positions...

Excellent thread. Very informative.

Sapphos
Prince Andrew, Donald Trump, Epstein, far right blah blah blah. It's like full house on Guardian bingo. Tedious

What more 'evidence' do you need? People have told you exactly what PP said on here-

Sapphos
You have made a number of accusations and you have provided zero evidence for any of them. PP is doing real harm to women. You said this repeatedly. Substantiate it. With a link to something concrete. Which part of the onus is on you to verify your accusations don't you comprehend?