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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Julie Bindel bullying Posie

409 replies

LiterallyProblematic · 17/01/2020 08:16

FFS! Why did a she have to do this? It’s so divisive and gratuitously mean!
twitter.com/bindelj/status/1217986645871546368?s=20

OP posts:
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Needmoresleep · 20/01/2020 12:07

Sappho, the poster hearhoovesthinkzebras is a good example of a poster who appeared to come here to create divisions rather than to contribute constructively.

Posie, and Caro, seem to attract a disproportionate amount of criticism from new posters like zebras, generating a sense that some people like to see women divided. Left, right, whatever, whatever, self ID is an issue for all women. We are not the same, and we can all be criticised. Which does not mean that we cannot still applaud the achievements of both Posie and Julie.

We can also point out their failings, however the likelihood that zebras and friends will then pounce acts as a deterrent. Better to focus on the positives of which there are many.

moderate · 20/01/2020 11:44

It is the LEFT who created the vacuum into which Posie stepped. If the LEFT doesn’t like her, is fearful of what she may be bringing about, then maybe the LEFT needs to have a re-think.

But what is wrong with someone who is both GC and on "the LEFT" pointing out both the failings of "the LEFT" and the (different) failings of Posie Parker?

DuMondeB · 20/01/2020 11:24

I think the cases that are more likely to negatively impact children are actually the AGP late transitioners, rather than the transmen, as long as they don’t try and deny their biological relationship via the child’s birth certificate.
The more we learn about the way we inherit susceptibility to disease from our parents, the more important accurate birth records will be.

As someone who was fortunate enough to inherit the non-faulty X chromosome of my mother’s pair, I have first hand experience of genetic counselling and how empowering that knowledge can be.

Needmoresleep · 20/01/2020 11:21

Sappho, making blanket decisions without discussion leaves the door open for all sorts of problems.

The decision in Rotherham not to pursue know sex offenders because of "community relations" was disastrous, not just for the girl victims, but I suspect many in those communities themselves.

A few years back I used to run into a nice middle aged lady who was in the process of being approved for adoption, and who would give me updates and we would discuss parenting. She was single and lesbian, and had enough resources to cut down on her work hours. Important as she was likely to adopt an older child, probably one who, because of previous trauma, needed to be in an all female home.

My overriding thought were how brave and how noble (an odd word, but right in this context). I no longer bump into her but really hope it is working out. In this context her being lesbian was a positive, and the fact that she was happy to talk openly to relatively strangers, suggested she rightly assumed societal acceptance.

More recently I have wondered what would happen if a similarly aged single person, a recent M-F transitioner tried to go down the same route, perhaps insisting that they had the same "rights" as other lesbians. However much adults can believe that TWAW are women, it is a concept that can be hard to explain to small children, people with dementia (I have some direct experience, as my mother lived with dementia for a decade, which makes for a funny anecdote probably not suitable for this board) and dogs. It would be a difficult dilemma for a social worker, who might be concerned that policy makers would respond in the same way as those in Rotherham, ie take the safer political path.

Trans parenting also raises issues around surrogacy (a whole issue in itself), around minors transitioning, and thus giving up their capacity to have children naturally, and NHS resources and priorities.

Society views evolve. Lesbian parents, at least where I live, are nothing unusual or remarkable. They would have been, perhaps 30 years ago. 30 years ago there was raging discussion and I suspect that was important. Airing concerns, and prejudices, enabled them to be addressed and for people to accept. Expecting people to simply believe something and then accusing them of hate if they try to raise concerns simply drives opinions underground. And quite possibly into the hands of politicians willing to voice these views. (A wonderful woman I know was a supporter of Tommy Robinson. She had been seriously abused in childhood and was very triggered by Rotherham. A good example of someone who is a natural labour supporter but probably put her faith in Priti Patel.)

#nodebate was arrogant and wrong. Self-ID is a big issue. Women not only have a right to debate their right to privacy, safety and dignity, but will want to prioritise the protection of children. For Stonewall to go behind our backs, and into our schools is scandalous. No wonder we are angry. Oddly I suspect that on an individual level women are more accepting of trans people than men. However we have a right to discuss issues and assert boundaries. Almost certainly there are circumstances where the safety of women and children should be prioritised over a desire to validate the identity of a TW.

SapphosRock · 20/01/2020 10:57

I think it’s probably compatible in some most cases, but children must be allowed to know and to talk about the truth of their birth. This is also my opinion for all adoptions/donor IVF children/children with an absent parent regardless of family make up.

I absolutely agree.

DuMondeB · 20/01/2020 10:50

This is an excellently written resource: childrenoftransitioners.org/

——————

Perhaps OP could ask for a thread title change, seeing as this thread ceased to be about Julie’s tweet very early on?

DuMondeB · 20/01/2020 10:48

What exactly makes being transgender incompatible with parenthood? Posters keep making this claim but cannot say why.

We’ve had threads and threads on why, encompassing all kinds of trans and all sorts of reasons, including surrogacy. Some posts have been made by the children of transitioners.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3688952-Seahorse-BBC2-now

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3496126-Mermaids-power-couple-Hannah-Jake-Graf-say-surrogacy-laws-must-be-changed-to-force-women-to-hand-over-babies

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3635936-children-of-transitioners

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3792431-Usbourne-publishing-calling-mums-transphobes

Personally, I think it’s probably compatible in some cases, but children must be allowed to know and to talk about the truth of their birth. This is also my opinion for all adoptions/donor IVF children/children with an absent parent regardless of family make up. Cheap access to simple gene tests through commercial entertainment sites mean that secrecy around these issues will be impossible to keep anyway.

I’m against surrogacy full stop (I accept that the law might not be able to do much to prevent some family-family cases).

SapphosRock · 20/01/2020 10:28

I already said upthread, I can understand how someone may think that the kind of behaviour seen on the transwidows thread shows an inherent selfishness that does not bode well for children. You said so much yourself, didn't you?

Yes I said entering into a relationship dishonestly without disclosing to your partner or kids you have gender dysphoria is not acceptable. Being trans itself isn't the problem it's the dishonestly.

I can also understand how to some people the idea of gaslighting a child from birth that mummy is actually daddy - or vice versa - is not in a child's best interests.

It is this attitude that makes trans people feel ashamed of who they are, thus entering into relationships dishonestly without revealing their dysphoria and causing a whole host of problems for those around them. Much better to be open about it from the beginning surely?

LangCleg · 20/01/2020 10:16

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA at the thought of Hooves being presented as an exemplar of the rotten FWR hive mind!

HorseWithNoTimeForThis · 20/01/2020 10:05

FFS Horse could you not just read the thread I posted?

FFS Sappho you have posted a screenshot of a post from hearhoovesthinkzebras which pissed you off. All I can say is:

Welcome to the club.

BeyondFlubeInclusionaryRF · 20/01/2020 10:04

I already said upthread, I can understand how someone may think that the kind of behaviour seen on the transwidows thread shows an inherent selfishness that does not bode well for children. You said so much yourself, didn't you?

And then I can also understand how to some people the idea of gaslighting a child from birth that mummy is actually daddy - or vice versa - is not in a child's best interests.

SapphosRock · 20/01/2020 09:48

BeyondFlubeInclusionaryRF

What exactly makes being transgender incompatible with parenthood? Posters keep making this claim but cannot say why.

BeyondFlubeInclusionaryRF · 20/01/2020 09:36

I must have missed the right to parenthood being included in the equality act?

Anyway - some disabilities are incompatible with parenthood, some religions are best not passed on to the next generation. Some people include paedophilia as a sexual orientation, and I'm pretty sure most of the population think that is incompatible with parenthood.

Stormer · 20/01/2020 09:30

This reply has been deleted

Deleted at OP's request

PaleBlueMoonlight · 20/01/2020 09:22

Isn't the point that having children is an act that only women can do, therefore a transman who becomes pregnant is demonstrating that they are in fact a woman. No question. It entirely undermines the claim to be a man. Of course, this assumes that your definitions of man and woman are based upon reproductive function, rather than a mix of "gender identity" and secondary sexual characteristics.

Lordfrontpaw · 20/01/2020 07:46

exLtEveDallas - I think whilst technically that comment want right, in reality yes, yes it is...

SapphosRock · 20/01/2020 07:44

To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender. This is because changing your physiological or other gender attributes is a personal process rather than a medical one.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

exLtEveDallas · 20/01/2020 07:38

being transgender is a protected characteristic

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic, not being transgender.

SapphosRock · 20/01/2020 07:01

Don't worry @Staffori there's been plenty of posts on this thread excusing, minimising and denying Posie said trans men should be be sterilised. And of course she retracted it (after repeating it multiple times on various different social media platforms) which makes it okay...

Basically, her opinion is that women who reject womanhood and claim to be men, shouldn't become mothers. I reckon that's an opinion shared by many and it's one I tentatively agree with

What makes you agree with this? And how on earth can you justify it seeing as being transgender is a protected characteristic along with religion, disability, sexuality etc?

Staffori · 20/01/2020 00:50

Sorry, I haven't read this thread very carefully but in case it hasn't been said, PP did retract her statement that women who identify as men should be sterilised and she never said anything about 'forcibly' sterilised in the first place.

I recall the reason she gave for her retraction was that sterilisation is permanent but that that many such women do in fact detransition. Basically, her opinion is that women who reject womanhood and claim to be men, shouldn't become mothers. I reckon that's an opinion shared by many and it's one I tentatively agree with but it does NOT mean that I support forcible prevention either.

I consider both PP and JB to be friends, by the way.

GrinitchSpinach · 20/01/2020 00:01

Creepster, I think I love you!

The NYC event seems to have gone off without a hitch. I am so glad! More power to all the women gathering to defend our rights and those of our daughters.

stumbledin · 19/01/2020 23:14

Sorry to interrupt what seems to have become a different discussion but just thought I would post this link that wants to suggest that gender critical feminism is falling apart.

Not that I think anything publised by Pink News is of any value, but unfortunately MSM uses PN as the go to source for news on trans issues etc.. Waiting to see if this is picked up.

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/jan/18/question-time-clash-lecturer-tells-of-hate-mail

Creepster · 19/01/2020 23:03

Apologies for the serial posting but stop a mo, please, and consider why selfish seems to be such a buzzword and negative indictment.

Creepster · 19/01/2020 23:00

Also too and besides, there is no misogynist wing of the Feminist movement.