Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What can we do as a society, and as parents, to reduce the number of girls who mistakenly transition?

80 replies

ShastaBeast · 12/01/2020 02:28

Aside from addressing the issues within the medical profession.

I’ve been reading the occasional thread with interest. I’ve always been open and understanding but can also see the dangers. I know a couple of FtM people, one as a teen with ASD who seemed very much a girl, albeit a “tomboy”.

I have a nine year old awaiting an ASD assessment (she already has another diagnosis). In the last year she has embraced becoming a “tomboy” along with another girl. There’s clearly a lot of gender stereotyping going on in the playground, one eight year old girl declared she “is a tomboy because she likes robotics” (she doesn’t have brothers). DD has asked whether she is a girl or boy, and similar, before - obviously she knows she is a girl. I’ve reinforced that girls can do/dress/act however they want and it doesn’t mean they are boys, and vice versa. I remember lots of “tomboys” and women who weren’t overtly feminine (make up, dresses etc) when I was at school.

Are there any resources or thing we should do to help girls be comfortable becoming women and combat the drift towards identifying as trans? Is there anything for schools and parents specifically - our school don’t even let girls wear trousers! I want to show her that being a woman is a good thing and to see the changes to her body as positive too.

OP posts:
littlbrowndog · 12/01/2020 14:53

Yes Michelle. All of that

For me the biggest. Get them lobby groups away from schools and our children

Stop these lobby groups writing stuff for schools councils governments

These lobby groups are not the laws

hipsterfun · 12/01/2020 14:47

Explain sexism.

Explain human biology.

Both in as much detail as possible, appropriate to age of child.

PlanDeRaccordement · 12/01/2020 13:24

I don’t think we can realistically ban children (under 18s) from the internet. Many schools now have digital textbooks and online homeworking sites. By secondary school, most children get their homework assigned on a webpage or via email.
I know my kids have also found several YoUTube channels that have revision videos and lectures which help them study for exams.

Michelleoftheresistance · 12/01/2020 13:19

Wake the general public up to the fact that Stonewall has been viewed and treated as a neutral expert group but is in fact a biased political lobby group with a very specific agenda, and should be treated as such.

Get Stonewall out of schools, and Mermaids, and any other political lobby with an agenda. Revise all policies that have been written in conjunction with these politically biased group. Create a strong nationwide demand that everything is thoroughly and properly impact assessed, and that policies must meet ALL needs by reasonable adjustments, not throw some groups under the bus to favour other groups.

Remove the gag from all services that insist they may only affirm, and instead weight them towards assessing and meeting additional needs and underlying reasons contributing towards the child's dysphoria.

Massively invest in CAMHS, with a strong brief that a ring fenced proportion of this investment must be resources for early intervention, with strong, quickly accessed assessment pathways and practical support for primary aged children, particularly in managing anxiety and identifying and supporting ASDs in girls.

Launch an initiative or group govt funded that focuses on body positivity, accepting and connecting with your body as it is, alongside teaching respect for boundaries and consent. For older kids this needs to strongly address the heavy objectifying of female bodies, the issues around porn, and sexual harassment/assault. Teach them to look critically at messages in advertising, run the whole lot of them through a teen version of the Freedom Programme, for younger ones work hard on consent and respect for other people's boundaries.

PlanDeRaccordement · 12/01/2020 13:16

Lots of great suggestions so far.
I only have one tiny add.
They should add to sex education puberty curriculum not just how your body changes but also how mentally your identity will still be formulating. So, when it comes to sexuality or gender those do not really settle until your early 20s. Sort of like when you get your wisdom teeth, that is when you are wise enough to know yourself.
Right now, the activist keep pushing the self-ID to lower and lower ages. And there is nothing countering that. They literally think a 4yr can decide that they are a different sex, their sexuality, their gender, all of it and honestly the truth is a 4yr old really only knows that they are a human child instead of a puppy.

MedusasButterDish · 12/01/2020 13:14

DancelikeEmmaGoldman A League of Their Own! Yes! That was such a great movie. A full range of choices for different women, and no pretending some of them weren't hard.

EuphorbiaHemlockthe1st · 12/01/2020 13:09

Write to your MP. Not that many people do.
Help them get good at a sport.

DreadPirateLuna · 12/01/2020 13:04

Amplify the voices of young detransitioners. Teenagers can push back against their ancient and out-of-touch parents, but are more likely to listen to people of their own age or a little older who have been through the same thing.

Encourage activities with a more outward focus rather than have them constantly ruminating on their own inner identity and worrying about what other people think of them. Stuff like hiking, dance classes, volunteer work, dog walking -- obviously tailored to the kid's own interests.

And yes, restrict smart phone and social media use.

AutumnRose1 · 12/01/2020 12:49

Nonny I don't know about that, but let's say the internet is a big influence.

if we didn't have Stonewall in schools, that would still help. And there was a point where senior education bods could have said "no" just as all of us who are battling workplace loo problems would have expected our directors to say "no".

so we are dealing with powerful forces regardless of the internet.

Neverenoughcoffee · 12/01/2020 12:48

Do we need to keep them off the internet, or do we need to keep communicating?
Whichever messages they're getting from the internet, they will get from their peers. We can't keep our kids in a bubble.
Lots and lots of casual, curious, wondering out loud about these issues may be far more productive than attempting to shield them from them.

NonnyMouse1337 · 12/01/2020 12:44

AutumnRose1 I'm not well versed in the subject, but I have read there's been research that social media use directly affects developing brains in children. If there is strong evidence for this (maybe there isn't) then as a society we need to have a serious conversation about why children are still allowed access to this kind of technology.

NonnyMouse1337 · 12/01/2020 12:40

Just to add, I know my post isn't directly related to trans stuff, but I think properly monitoring and restricting access to the internet for children and teens will have a positive effect in general - whether from being exposed to porn or trans ideology or unrealistic beauty standards and so on.
It's not possible for individual parents to do this, because children can access such material from peers whose parents don't have the same level of concern or understanding. This needs to be a much wider initiative the way we handle alcohol, drugs, gambling etc for minors.

AutumnRose1 · 12/01/2020 12:40

Nonny "We ban cigarettes, alcohol, gambling, even tattooing for children. I don't see why a complete ban on smartphones shouldn't be seriously considered as well."

I don't think we can put the genie back in the bottle, but there is no way schools should be insisting that children have smartphones, it's insanity.

NonnyMouse1337 · 12/01/2020 12:34

I'm not a parent, but I personally think there should be a campaign to ban smartphones for those under 18. There's no 'need' I can think of for children to possess one.

There's growing evidence that children are easily addicted to social media and it affects their brain by generating an obsession with getting likes from their peer group, unrealistic fashion and makeup on Instagram etc. There's online bullying, revenge porn and private photos being passed around for amusement, unrestricted access to adult material and potential contact with predators as nearly every social media platform has very lax rules about its content and how it is managed - Instagram, Reddit, Facebook etc all have groups and pages for extreme porn, fetish and paedophilic content. Fine for an adult platform, but not when under 18s can easily access it too. Lots of computer games have very sexualised imagery and characters.
There needs to be a proper delineation over what adults can access vs what children are able to encounter even if they aren't searching for it.

Some parents do try their best to monitor their children's phones but many don't.
We ban cigarettes, alcohol, gambling, even tattooing for children. I don't see why a complete ban on smartphones shouldn't be seriously considered as well. They can still access the internet via home computers, tablets etc with parental supervision.

AutumnRose1 · 12/01/2020 11:52

re the internet, something else I learned from MN is that some schools are insisting on children having smartphones, surely there should be a massive fightback against that? I only got one myself 3 years ago.

mement0mori · 12/01/2020 11:45

I think we need to keep them off the internet

This is probably the main thing. unlimited access to the internet is not healthy for young minds.

AutumnRose1 · 12/01/2020 11:17

Bovary agree

also, I can't really comment as a non-parent but my godchildren's parents restrict their access to the internet. Of course they can see whatever when they are out or at school but there's kind of no need to add in unfettered access at home, IYSWIM.

I also had teen goddaughter tell me that asexual is a useful label for teens who don't want to have sex.

I think all the kink shaming crap you hear has made it seem even more important for teens to have sex! Re sex ed, would anyone consider withdrawing their DC? I used to think that shouldn't be an option but now they are teaching shit that no one needs to know!!

BovaryX · 12/01/2020 11:09

Autumn
I think one of the contributory factors is that the porn aesthetic has colonised contemporary culture. It has become the dominant paradigm. This reinforces the regressive, almost parodic sex stereotypes which are also part of the lobby's ideology. This nexus has, imo, created a hostile environment for those who don't conform to this paradigm

AutumnRose1 · 12/01/2020 10:55

on sex stereotypes

there is an unhealthy obsession with "beauty" IMHO and a very narrow stereotype about it

As an adult, if I go into Superdrug, I'm horrified at the amount of makeup in there. It's like the whole thing now is use enough product to erase your face, then create a new one.

Girls all seem to have long glossy hair etc.

Girls are basically expected to look like drag queens. So how much of this is commercial? Lots of advisers and "medical" orgs making money out of this too.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 12/01/2020 10:20

Sex Stereotypes: Remind people that sex stereotypes can be limiting and/or damaging, and encourage kids to accept each others' preferences without judgement

Schools: Comment on RSHP/sex/health ed and raise the issue that not everyone agrees with affirmation, point out the safeguarding risks of withholding info from parents

Internet - control and monitor kids' access. I'm a bit surprised at parents that think they can't or shouldn't do this - kids need guidance on this, not just for this issue, but for so many reasons, not least online bullying. Unfettered internet access is not suitable for kids or teens.

Campaign for better mental health treatment. Support for kids with mental health issues, dysphoria, PTSD.

More acceptance of gay & lesbian kids might help, too.

But of course, all of the above would be transphobic & bigoted, wouldn't it?

BovaryX · 12/01/2020 10:19

Regressive gender stereotypes seem to be an integral part of this lobby. Lang is right, this pernicious influence needs to be removed from schools. How that is achieved I don't know

AutumnRose1 · 12/01/2020 10:00

This might seem a bit off the wall but....

I saw a horrendous thing yesterday about porn, and someone saying “no wonder girls want to transition if they think bring treated this way is normal”.

I agree. But also, I feel as if girls don’t get the message that being single and childfree is possible and often desirable. I think they’d think that’s okay for a man but not a woman.

I’m 43 with godchildren. The teen girl has literally no one in her circle, apart from me, who doesn’t see single childfree woman as a problem.

My late father had friends who said to him that it was harder for women my age because the messsge is, there must be something wrong with you wanting to be single. Theirs was one of the first generations to really have the choice and it was seen more as “yay, we have a choice”.

So I can’t help wondering, as does my teen goddaughter, if some of it is about independence. Obviously the horrendous gender stereotypes are being entrenched more than they used to be, so if I had thought my future was not free, would I want to transition? Quite possibly.

Manderleyagain · 12/01/2020 09:50

Schools need to take a stance generally that they are against sex stereotyping, I depend of anything to do with kids id'ing as the opp sex. Breaking down gendered expectations & stereotypes needs to be worked into the basic principles of the school right from reception. Not allowing girls to wear trousers is v bad op! That type of thing needs to go. There are a number of campaigns on this at the moment. I will link some when I am on pc.

rodgmum · 12/01/2020 09:49

Parents need to speak up. Stonewall et al depend on parents not speaking out about this at schools so they can quietly bring it in. I’d think that 95%+ of parents have no idea this is happening- I certainly didn’t!

rodgmum · 12/01/2020 09:46

Yes, get it out of the schools. Some parents will want their children positively affirmed, but many of us want to take a more cautious approach through “watchful waiting”. Schools need to work with parents on this issue and where the parents believe positive affirmation will damage their children’s mental health, the school should follow the parents lead. Positive affirmation is an experimental approach, despite what the lobby groups say.

The best shot many of these teen girls have at desisting is if the trusted adults around them do not affirm.