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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

M&S + John Lewis - your poor Christmas sales will be due to the contempt you've shown your female customers

482 replies

Sunkisses · 10/01/2020 10:26

It's all over the news that M&S and John Lewis have had terrible Christmas sales. I am absolutely sure this is due to the terrible press coverage they received and viral threads of Twitter about how they allow men into the female changing rooms, the contempt they treated their female customers with when we voiced our complaints, and the 1,000s of us who pledged not to shop with them over Christmas. I stuck by my pledge over Christmas and they lost about £1,000 of custom from me with gifts and food. Anyone else kept up their boycott?

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borntobequiet · 16/01/2020 22:52

Oh, silly me. Well at least I revisited Latin for about the second time in 45 years.
Slightly puzzled now why the range was given an Italian name in the first place. Or perhaps all those unnecessary frills and buttons are an Italian thing?
I should really go to bed.

SingingLily · 16/01/2020 22:37

It's Italian, so it would be Per Uno.

It wouldn't appeal though, for all sorts of reasons...

borntobequiet · 16/01/2020 19:08

They need a Per Unum range but I expect that would be misgendering in some way.
But! Having looked, surely Per Una should be Per Unam, as per seemingly takes the accusative? Or is it really named for someone called Una, except that’s an anglicised Irish name?

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 16/01/2020 13:35

I can tell you that some "laydee reviews" I have posted on a similar (but not sick-making) way have been downvoted quote a lot.

Tubbytwo · 16/01/2020 13:03

DuMondeB, I’ve already made this my mission but the more of us who do it the better!

DuMondeB · 16/01/2020 13:00

And finally, no more thumbs-ups or downs. Why do M&S need them? What is that about, even? Get rid.

I suspect this is a cost saving, artificial intelligence type thing. Lots of thumbs down will either automatically delete the review or flag it up to an actual human being to review.

Maybe if we collectively started to thumbs down all the reviews that explicitly say ‘as a man’ ‘fits a male’ etc action would be taken? I reckon it would only take 40-50 thumbs down make a particular review flag up.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 16/01/2020 12:06

The ick factor is just too strong now.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 16/01/2020 11:59

All this does rather make me wonder just how big a market men with a fetish for knickers is. M&S better hope it's big enough to replace all the women buying knickers for practical reasons who're now buying them somewhere else.

Datun · 16/01/2020 11:53

I agree that making men try knickers on in the men's changing room and filtering reviews, would take a lot of the sexual thrill away for fetishists, given that the violation of boundaries is key to a lot of it.

And it wouldn't prevent men with genuine gender dysphoria from purchasing the clothes.

TimeLady · 16/01/2020 11:34

I doubt they’ll have much success unless they start adding frills, glitter and general sparkly tat

They tried that a few years back. I wondered who they were trying to appeal to at the time, 'cos it certainly wasn't to middle-aged women like me.

It's all starting to make sense now.....Grin They've clearly been an supplier to that minority demographic for years..... Must be the target market for all the nighties with soppy bunnies and crap on too.

C'mon, M&S, show your true colours. Let's have some male mannequins in female clothing in the windows, on the website and throughout the stores. Be out and proud.

FleetsumNJetsum · 16/01/2020 11:29

There was a discussion about that on another thread, Tubbytwo, and some numpty took issue with me as “some men like to wear them” and why shouldn’t they benefit from knowing how comfortable other men thought they were?
As far as I can tell the poster defending this shit is female

Ok. About the men in knickers discussion. I think that people should be allowed to wear what they like, including men wearing women's knickers if they choose. I mean, who wants to be the clothes police? I feel that men can buy knickers at M&S if they choose, and even try them on there. As long as they are trying them on in the men's changing room. But the problem is that fetishistic lingerie wearers are the ones doing it, not men who simply feel that women's knickers are more comfortable. I mean, come on, am I out of line here? So we are forced to wonder what they will do with the knickers while in the changing rooms (am remembering twitter selfies...) and where they will put the ones they don't purchase. We all know it is a fetish, and I think fetishes are fine, as long as the enjoyment does not involve other people, knowingly or unknowingly, in public places. People who have no interest in participating. Who cringe at the thought of having unknowingly participated. Possibly paid money for wanked-on undies. So what is the answer?

One small yet easily do-able correction would be to change the M&S comments policy online. This has been said on this board before. These men get a thrill, I'm sure, "outing" themselves online on the knickers page, and that is bad enough (bad as in creepy). They also show commraderie and get another thrill through thumbs-upping each other's comments.

An easy part fix would be getting rid of the sex descriptors for the comments. I say part fix because there are ways, surely, that these people could get around that and identify each other in the comments, but that would not be requiring other people to be as "aware" of the fetishistic activity. So, we know it happens, but it is not in plain sight.

M&S could also make women feel less creeped out at the very thought of M&S knickers with something they already do: filter the comments. I read just a few of them but found a number that were clearly rejoicing in pointing out that they (men) had junk that fit comfortably in the knickers. Come on, M&S, we can understand with certainty that there will be fetishistic men commenting, we don't need it rubbed in our faces. Surely these comments can be rejected as inappropriate. And if someone wants to ask "why can't they comment in this way? It is perfectly normal to comment on comfort", just be aware that most people don't require readers to imagine their genitals when reading a comment. I believe (and could be wrong) this is a male thing. A male with a fetish.

And finally, no more thumbs-ups or downs. Why do M&S need them? What is that about, even? Get rid.

I know this does very little to solve the "use the changing room where you feel most comfortable" policy, and the possibility of wanked-on knickers in store, but come on M&S, take some steps to be less creepy!

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 16/01/2020 11:29

you must think what we think, or you're a bigot who can fuck off

And so you fucked off and they lost your interest vote and custom. By the looks of it many others have done the same.

YourOpinionIsNoted · 16/01/2020 11:21

I'm not going out of my way to be an angry harridan, I'm just going to an easily found, easily shoppable alternative who actively does want the custom of an Adult Human Female. Win:win.

Ditto.

Same with the general election. Lib Dems TOLD me not to vote for them. So I didn't.

Wokescolds can scream "you must think what we think, or you're a bigot who can fuck off" at me all day long, but they can't make me spend my money (or my vote), and they can't make me change my mind. I'll just go elsewhere.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 16/01/2020 11:01

With the personal boycotts (that are somehow simultaneously having no effect whatsoever AND putting the employees on the street...)

It's very easy really. It's not like I am now handwringedly bereft of choice.

  • I want knickers? OK, I'll get them from Sainsbury's instead, no bother.
  • Christmas hampers for work suppliers? Hotel Chocolat do nice options, easy.
  • Something to put on my toast? A veritable smorgasbord of options aside from Flora
  • Birthday smellies for Mum? Nice little independent came up trumps so I could avoid suffocating myself in Lush.

I'm not going out of my way to be an angry harridan, I'm just going to an easily found, easily shoppable alternative who actively does want the custom of an Adult Human Female. Win:win.

SeaWitchly · 16/01/2020 10:51

I am still boycotting Flora as well 😁

TirisfalPumpkin · 16/01/2020 09:27

Worth mentioning that the purpose of a boycott is rarely to force the offending brand out of business. It’s a negotiation, with our power being our £. M&S, JL et al can accept our suggestion and win at least some of the lost business back, or not - in which case they’re going to have to find that income from somewhere else. Selling £35 acrylic granny cardis to the blue hairs sounds like a solid plan for sure.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 16/01/2020 09:01

Maybe they plan to be lingerie and food only. I can't imagine anyone wanting to have a wank over their awkwardly fitted jumpers.

Tubbytwo · 16/01/2020 09:00

So M&S decides that making changing rooms unsafe for women and girls will help? Maybe they are planning to sell their dreary clothes to another target market in future? Given their boring ranges I doubt they’ll have much success unless they start adding frills, glitter and general sparkly tat 🤭

Crissy83 · 16/01/2020 08:12

Very tough retail market, particularly on the High St where these two heavily rely. Uninspiring ranges.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 16/01/2020 08:08

"Women and Wankers" would be more honest, though admittedly a bit challenging in terms of getting it past the marketing team.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 16/01/2020 07:34

if they advertised this as far and loud as that stupid Christmas jumper advert.

Yes, why don't they own it? If the fitting rooms that happened to be in the bras and/or womenswear sections had signs saying "mixed sex fitting rooms" big and clear, it'd be less of an issue. Everyone would be in on it.

The fact they know its upsetting and a bit dodgy, so they're doing it on the sly (in fact barely even telling store staff); AND ignoring/implicitly slurring all the people asking for justification by email etc - that's what's really makes this smell bad.

Dangerfloof · 16/01/2020 05:16

The John Lewis trans policy has been in place for many years
But this isnt about the trans policy. M and s have explicitly said you can go to the changing room you feel most comfortable in.
How many men men/actual men with a desire to mingle with women for any reason whatsoever will take them up on this offer.
I would be ok with this (still never use them again) if they advertised this as far and loud as that stupid Christmas jumper advert. If they truly believe that no harm will come to women ever then they damn well should stand by that and be much more open about it.
They dont really believe though, and they are hoping only a few women are assaulted before they can switch back to women and transwomen only. Whereupon I still wont use them.

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 15/01/2020 23:25

How incredibly sad that there are women who’ve been taken in by these lies which seem to increase in number every day.

That people can change sex? Yes, I agree, it’s a horrible lie to tell.

Tubbytwo · 15/01/2020 22:21

How incredibly sad that there are women who’ve been taken in by these lies which seem to increase in number every day.

74NewStreet · 15/01/2020 22:12

There was a discussion about that on another thread, Tubbytwo, and some numpty took issue with me as “some men like to wear them” and why shouldn’t they benefit from knowing how comfortable other men thought they were?
As far as I can tell the poster defending this shit is female 🤷🏻‍♀️