A dirty word

Get this a lot. I think there is a generation gap. My beloved boss, in her 60s, recruits a sex balanced (technical) team, knows she's been passed over at work for mediocre men, and has been affected by male violence in her family - insists she's not a feminist.

@deydododatdodontdeydo
I think I've not worded my post clearly- the views re pregnant women etc were definitely my female colleague's own opinions but I suspect that her male peers actively encouraged her to voice them. She was certainly frequently asked to 'manage' staff who were being 'difficult' when any objective bystander would have seen that she wasn't going to be very sensitive in her approach.

Unpacking a lifetime of conditioning is hard work.
I don't know if Plato's unexamined life is worth living or not but it is a hell of a lot less work.

I gave birth behind a filing cabinet whilst simultaneously taking a call from our Kuala Lumpur office and typing up a briefing for the Deputy Director.

Bet that was fun for the cleaners.

And if it means they sometimes stop and think, "what is Emma going to say about this?" that's progress on never thinking about it at all.

I don't think anyone at work who knows me is in any doubt that I'm a feminist. It may have held me back, but not as much as useless managers, bias, etc have.

If a woman says to me that they're not a feminist I ask them what they think a feminist is.
I also have moved away from thinking of it in terms of equality. I like the concept of liberation and equality of access rather than equality in a strict sense.
My DD gets a lot of 'what about the men' when she talks about this at school. She rather likes answering 'what about the men? Feminism is about women'.

I think when you say you're a feminist there are some people that assume you're a bit radicalised and militant. It's like a step too far for them...

wheresmymouseorgan

I had a female senior manager who openly warned against recruiting young women who might leave to have babies. She was in her 40s and never had children. No male colleagues put her up to it - they were her own opinions.

Yes, women who are knowledgeable and speak up about their thoughts and opinions are viewed quite negatively. Viewed as 'being difficult', always harping on about stuff.
Men are allowed to be straightforward, but a woman 'hurts' and 'upsets' people by doing the same.

People in general, and women in particular due to socialisation, don't like to be known as someone who 'isn't a nice person'. Therefore as social mammals, when in a group, we will distance ourselves from the person who seems to be flouting any unspoken rules or is labelled as problematic.

Many people (especially women) seem uninterested in 'politics' and expressing strong views and opinions on issues, so will want to avoid conversations that lean towards such topics.

Well, it directly contradicts the rules of female socialisation, doesn’t it?

• Don’t ram your intelligence down people’s throats by demonstrating any knowledge or learning. Pretend you have no concept of anything serious and are the least intelligent person present.
• Don’t express any strong opinions that might upset or offend anyone, or worst of all make you sound “strident”.
• At all times be light, playful and gentle. Conversation with you should be a nice relief from serious and potentially difficult man talk.

@Deathgrip

I agree. In the workplace I mentioned upthread there were a couple of fairly senior women who openly say sexist things that I suspect most of the senior men believed but would not say so openly. For example- one told anyone who would listen that it was just a 'fact' that women who were pregnant became less committed to their careers and so it was natural that few women with children made it to the top positions in the business. She also told a male colleague who frequently left on time (not early) to collect his child from nursery that his wife should be doing this. She also insisted on very early morning 'breakfast briefings' for her team- telling anyone who mentioned the difficulties this caused for childcare that their domestic arrangements were not her problem. The general view was that she could not be called out on this as she was female herself so could not be sexist. I have a suspicion that her male peers set her up to deliver sexist messages on their behalf.

Unfortunately in order to get to senior places, many women have had to work like men, act like men and think like men. They have to go along with the male view and often think of themselves as having more in common with the senior men than the less senior women.

And the confirmation bias that there cannot be any sexism at play because they’ve managed to make it. A bit like female doctors who diminish menstrual pain because their periods are three days long and painless.

In my working experience, senior women have been probably the most unhelpful to women in the workplace.
Either they haven't had kids and don't see why anyone else should.
Or they have, and they worked until the day before they gave birth, took half an hour's maternity and if they did it then everyone else can.
There have been some exceptions, but the above is very common.

In my experience it’s “I’m not a feminist but” followed by listing out how they agree with feminist ideas and finish with “and of course I love men” 🙄🙄

There's certainly a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about feminism. It is a social and political movement, or rather a collection of movements and struggles. Many people (especially women) seem uninterested in 'politics' and expressing strong views and opinions on issues, so will want to avoid conversations that lean towards such topics.

I suppose for the average woman there can also be a lot of uncertainty in what to call yourself if you don't necessarily agree with all the positions in an ideological paradigm.

Here and elsewhere, there can be shock and surprise at how someone can call themselves a feminist if they question this or don't automatically support that. Whether Rad fem or Lib fem or other types, it can seem like you have to accept certain positions as a package deal.

I'd call myself a feminist if I was pressed to define myself, just as I would say I'm left-leaning. However, I tend to approach issues on a case by case basis and look for what works best. It's tempting to resort to a default position and then try to fit solutions around it, but I try to remember to consider different viewpoints and strategies and that feminism may not necessarily have all the answers.
I don't read feminist theory and many other women don't either. I suppose I'd be considered as not a particularly good feminist because some of my viewpoints can be critical, skeptical or unsupportive of certain ideological positions. Plus some of the activities or things I enjoy might be said to be disrespectful to women or indicative that I don't care enough about women to change my behaviour.

It's fucking weird that women with feminist politics don't call themselves feminists. It's not something we ever had trouble with when I was growing up, when I was a teen, or when I was a young adult. I don't know any Gen X woman who doesn't describe herself as a feminist if her politics lean that way.

Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women so it is no surprise that Feminists have been called everything from shrews to man haters to transphobes by misogynists over the years.
After all, women saying no to men is a hate crime.

@FFSFFSFFS:

They probably whinge when women take time off for pregnancy.

I should bloody well think so, too. I gave birth behind a filing cabinet whilst simultaneously taking a call from our Kuala Lumpur office and typing up a briefing for the Deputy Director.

It is through MN that I have learned what Feminism actually is.

Seconded.

People don't realise what the word feminist means and think it's about hating men.

Some people will believe anything their tabloid tells them to believe. The Sun etc don't hold back in that dept. They really hate feminists don't they?

**JellySlice I completely agree. Very well said, thank you for articulating what I struggle to.

@JellySlice

Not that feminists perform society's feminine stereotypes, but that our way of thinking and acting are far closer to the way women generally behave - with greater co-operation, with emphasis on constructive activities, with concern for society in general - than to the way men tend to behave

I agree wholeheartedly. And have come to the view that this is exactly why the idea of all women identifying as feminists is such an uncomfortable idea for some. Imagine how powerful it would be if 50% of the global population co-operated together to demand better treatment. Far better to keep us trying to do things the way of the patriarchy and persuade us that 'feminists' are man hating, unrealistic kill-joys.

For many of us, and I include men, 'feminism' has been interpreted as:

Man-hating
Lentil-weaving
Bra-burning
Single-track
Rejecting femininity
Harsh
Strident

And people do not want to associate themselves with such values or mindsets. Even those who believe in equality and equity of the sexes may hesitate to call themselves 'a Feminist' as they do not associate themselves with every aspect of what they think feminism means. Just as someone who believes in and supports a F@POS NHS, might hesitate to call themselves a Socialist, because they also support a free market economy.

It is through MN that I have learned what Feminism actually is. And it seems to me that Feminism is actually very feminine. Not that feminists perform society's feminine stereotypes, but that our way of thinking and acting are far closer to the way women generally behave - with greater co-operation, with emphasis on constructive activities, with concern for society in general - than to the way men tend to behave. Even when we express our anger, there is a distinct lack of aggression.

Women standing up for women and centering women has always been regarded as a naughty thing to do.

The sad thing is, the female people suffering from this internalised misogyny, valuing themselves only by how good girl they will be seen by males and seeking status by being gooder than other girls in bigging up males in varying ways (see relationships board for MILs doing this with biggest portions etc) are the Stockholm Syndrome sufferers most desperately in need of a bit of feminist teaching.

Female people are actually allowed to define themselves as female instead of in relation to the more important species.