Gay dads take surrogate to court after she bans them from seeing twin baby girls

My partner would never say he went through a miscarriage. But then his concern, as well as the loss, was for my welfare. These men don't sound remotely bothered about the 'several' women that went through it.

This.

The poor woman probably did incur extra "expenses" as she was stuck in a neonatal unti for weeks on end, presumably needing support from her partner. Interesting how they wouldn't cough up £3 extra to the birth mother but were happy to spend thousands in legal expenses and crowd funding when she exercised her actual right to stop the surrogacy.

I've also come to the conclusion that surrogacy should be completely banned/ illegal.

No one has, or should have, the right to have a child, and were already overpopulated enough, and with enough unwanted children in the care system, to not need to add to it.

If they were that desperate for children, they should've adopted, and helped a child or children already present in this world.

Regardless of your views on the case, the men are visiting the babies and that includes a lot of costs

They weren’t allowed to see the babies. But the mother would have incurred all the costs you list so it’s unsurprising that she insisted on being paid the full payment.

I also wonder about expenses.

I can see it if you are taking time off work-although do you lose money for maternity appointments?

Transport costs, clothes.

Good God, @FlyingOink. That story is unbelievably horrific. What the actual fuck.

One thing not mentioned here is the trauma and attachment of the baby being removed from it's birth mother, the voice and heartbeat it's known for it's whole life is gone.
Even removing a baby at birth can cause emotional harm.
There is a lot of talk about the adults in this debate but there is the emotional harm to the baby to consider.

I'm not getting into the surrogacy argument but I'd like to point out that it costs parents a lot of money when their children are in the nicu. Of course health care is free but there is travel, food, drink, loss of earnings ect. It cost me and my dp nearly £1000 extra for the 5 weeks our son was in hospital. With twins it will only be worse. Regardless of your views on the case, the men are visiting the babies and that includes a lot of costs

It also involves a “words and pictures story” being read to Pipah every three months that details in terms the toddler would understand the “history and method” of Farnell’s crimes and why he is unable to be alone with her.

What the actual fuck?

Also surrogacy is banned is many countries, it is not impossible for the laws to be changed and for it to be banned here.

She did not break the agreement she wanted the money as agreed to be paid.

It is buying babies however you cover it up with saying it's expenses and as rightly noted in the U.K you commercial surrogacy is illegal. And yet it cost them £17k, anyone else's pregnancy here cost that? Who gets that cash, lawyers?

There two biological parents who don't live together so in any other circumstance this would mean split custody. The mother kept the babies with her so she clearly does care for them. She didn't sign them over at the hospital which is what usually happens.

I'd also like to hear the mothers side of the story Tinsel and I don't imagine we ever will.

And yes if the babies are with them now what is the funding for, legal fees to sort parental rights?

Also have we forgotten that there is adoption? Difficult though it may be it is a route to having a family when you can't make them with your biology.

Ultimately these are tiny little babies who have been through enough and should be with the mother and the father, and are not means by which these parents can wash their dirty washing in public.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/apr/14/baby-gammys-twin-sister-stays-with-western-australian-couple-court-orders

And this utter shitshow. Paedophile and his wife pay for twins, take one home, and leave the one with down's syndrome behind in Thailand with the surrogate mother.

This is the follow-up story, that states the paedophile didn't abandon the baby (doesn't explain) and details the child safeguarding plan to stop the baby being abused by the purchaser (paedophile is not allowed to be alone with the child).

Thailand banned surrogacy for foreigners after this.

I imagine that if they were born at 28 weeks the babies were very poorly and will probably have ongoing issues. I can't help but wonder what additional impact being removed from their mother had on the babies at this stage of their life?

I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable with the framing of wishes and feelings as real experience equal and to be treated as objective reality. Such as 'we conceived' and 'we went through a miscarriage'.

This is the age of female appropriation. Their language is just another example of it.

Ultimately, children are not best served by being a commodity. Learning that your very existence is transactional is never going to be a positive thing.

Exactly. We know the issues with adopted children and birth parents - and adoption is what we'd call a necessary or lesser evil. Something that can't always be helped. Even the children of sperm donors are evidenced to suffer identity issues.

Babies aren't products. Nobody has a "human right" to "own" one.

The figures discussed on that DM link are interesting.

According to Brilliantbeginnings.co.uk, in the US - where commercialised surrogacy is legal - surrogate mothers can be paid $20,000 to $30,000

In the UK, which has an 'altruistic' system, surrogates are paid around £12,000 to £15,000.

These amounts are very similar, once a currency conversion has taken place. So much for the US ‘selling’ women and babies and the U.K.’s ‘Altruistic’ approach.

My partner would never say he went through a miscarriage. But then his concern, as well as the loss, was for my welfare. These men don't sound remotely bothered about the 'several' women that went through it.

As a basic rule the biological father should have equal legal rights as the mother to be given hospital updates and visit his children in hospital. I really disagree with the current default legal position that the mother's husband is the legal father. People shouldn't have the right to put whatever they want on the birth certificate - this legal document belongs to the child, and should be an accurate record of their biological parentage.

Initially I thought this was about the surrogate and her boyfriend trying to extort money from the couple, but I'd like to hear her perspective. I do think she has a right to be financially compensated and I also think she should stick to her agreement but that's why surrogacy needs much more state involvement, to ensure everyone gets proper counseling and understands fully what they are agreeing to.
I don't feel comfortable with this thing where the egg comes from one woman, another carries the Pg, sometimes the gay couple don't know who the biological father is either. I think it's denying children a right to know who their biological parents are.

So father's aren't affected by miscarriages? They can't be upset or go through trauma?

Of course they can. Where did I say they were unaffected? I said they didn’t go through a miscarriage. Which they didn’t. Just like when a woman goes through a horrendous birth- her partner is affected but he didn’t have the horrendous birth.

I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable with the framing of wishes and feelings as real experience equal and to be treated as objective reality. Such as 'we conceived' and 'we went through a miscarriage'. No, they may have been thrilled by the woman they are using to produce a baby conceiving and very sad that the woman they were using had a miscarriage, but they're inflating their own participation and importance out of all proportion, and that's what leads to the erasure of the real people in the situation, who are truly having those experiences and need to be considered first.

If a mother is unwilling to surrender the child after birth - and this may well happen, because she's not a machine, she's a person, and third hand wishful thinking is nothing like the hard physical reality of experiencing actual pregnancy and birth, no one can forecast how that may affect them or change their thinking - and one of the adoptive parents is the sperm donor, then it should shift straight to the same conditions as any other hetero couple who are not living together.

Legal co parenting, and the reality is with babies and very young children that the primary carer will be the mother with the father's contact gradually increasing until overnights are appropriate. I understand how devastating this may be for parents who have waited for and prepared for their baby to come home, but it's not a tv or a washing machine, mess happens when you play with people's lives.

I know a gay man who wants to be a Dad. I think he would be excellent, but I find the way he talks about surrogates disturbing. It is as if they are nothing more than a fruit machine. I questioned him on this and pointed out that a surrogate is also a mother and he said 'not if we use an egg donor'. He just doesn't get it. The woman who carries a baby for 9 months is legally the mother in this country and, legality aside, her whole body has to change to bring the child into the world. That is not insignificant

I have heard men speak this way as well. They genuinely believe using an egg donor and not the surrogate’s own egg means she has no connection to the child, bar incubating it for them. She is seen as a commodity. They will say nice things about her, but nothing more than you might say about a pleasant Ocado delivery driver. Men (and I include my own DH) have no real clue as to the magnitude of birth. I suppose we can’t expect them to understand. But we can legislate against women being treated as commodities.

In every surrogacy situation one of the three parties - the birth mother, the adoptive parents, or the baby - gives up rights, or in the baby’s case has rights removed. Only people who are happy for that to occur support surrogacy. I don’t.

issues with sperm donation

story from child of donor

study showing psychological issues of children conceived using donor sperm

Ultimately, children are not best served by being a commodity. Learning that your very existence is transactional is never going to be a positive thing. The above examples are part of a growing body of evidence that even sperm donor children suffer psychologically.

Exactly. Miscarriage is the natural termination of a pregnancy. Neither of them were pregnant.

So father's aren't affected by miscarriages? They can't be upset or go through trauma?

We only have their side of the story and it still paints them in a bad light. So I’d definitely love to hear the mother’s side.

^this.

I think surrogacy should be banned. I don't think many people necessarily understand the attachment and bond you form with the baby inside of you while pregnant until you've actually gone through it.

I don't mean that no one can understand any part of having a baby without ever being pregnant but that you really cannot understand how the bond forms almost immediately after conception or realisation of pregnancy for many mothers. I believe whoever gives birth has a significant impact on the dc even if they may not be the biological mother ie where a surrogate has an egg implanted. Adoption is the way forward for this scenario or possibly in the future babies bred in a lab but that too makes me horrendously sad to think of as a mother.
Unfortunately there are also some prominent role models out there saying this is ok. It's really not and who knows how 'ready' these surrogates really are when they enter in these legal agreements.