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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish GRA consultation

158 replies

SidJS · 06/01/2020 18:37

Ends 17th March

Does anyone have the link / email address to submit responses to? All can and need to respond - not just the Scots!

OP posts:
Igneococcus · 09/01/2020 11:43

The moderators didn't let my comment with the link to the consultation through. I don't know why they often (not always) object to links.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 09/01/2020 10:50

Why can’t they admit that even if they think TW are all fluffy bunnies some predatory men will abuse self ID????

There is nothing to even charge a man with if he stares at my daughter getting dressed if he has also self ID’d as a TW to be in that changing room.

The complete disregard for the real lives of women & girls makes me furious.

Meercatsarecats · 09/01/2020 10:32

I thought they had already had a consultation about this?
What happened to it?
Will they just keep consulting until they get the answer they want?
Any news about the consultation in England that closed October 2018?

Sexequality · 09/01/2020 10:32

Not that they need to claim anything as they can just wonder in and nobody would be allowed to say a thing.

Sexequality · 09/01/2020 10:31

That ‘no man would even falsely claim to be transgender to access women and girls’ claim again. Enter the priesthood, train to be teachers, give up hours to lead scouts, sit in a septic tank yes, claim to be woman no.

Ereshkigal · 09/01/2020 10:07
Grin
littlbrowndog · 09/01/2020 10:06

I know eresh.

We have peaked. 🤣

Hit the sun 😮

littlbrowndog · 09/01/2020 10:04

My government can piss right off with calling women in Scotland non trans women

Imagine if they put a statement out.

Women of Scotland you are now non trans women

Fuckers woke fuckers

Ereshkigal · 09/01/2020 10:04

And DeeZastris and JulesJules

Ereshkigal · 09/01/2020 10:02

They quoted our posts in the Scottish Sun article littlbrowndog !

SidJS · 09/01/2020 10:02

Apart from placing their head in the sand - how can the Scots Gov seriously argue that they do not know of the plenty of evidence of female spaces being exploited?

If anyone has a legal / policy formation view on this I would be really interested.

OP posts:
SidJS · 09/01/2020 09:59

Our privacy and dignity is important. We are allowed to have boundaries.

Fully agree. How can we teach girls to have boundaries when government legislation proactively seeks to undermine this.

OP posts:
littlbrowndog · 09/01/2020 09:57

Well yes. When did in my country women and also men become non trans women or non trans men ?
?
The Scottish Government consultation, launched last month, said it had “not identified any evidence supporting the claim that trans women are more likely than non-trans women to sexually assault other women in women-only spaces”. It listed Dr Dunne’s as one of two “sources” for its conclusions.

The government document said: “Much of the literature reiterates this lack of any evidence, legal, medical or otherwise, to support this characterisation of trans women as ‘deviant’ or predatory.

“In addition to concerns about the inclusion of trans women in women-only spaces and services, some respondents expressed concerns that predatory men posing as trans women would seek to gain access to women only spaces and services for malicious reasons.

“The Scottish Government has not identified any evidence supporting a link between women-only spaces being inclusive of transgender women, and nontrans men falsely claiming a trans identity to access these spaces and commit sexual violence.”

Ereshkigal · 09/01/2020 09:27

Also, the arguments about TW in women's spaces always focus on whether they are a predatory risk. In the article it is claimed that they are no more of a risk than women. While anyone who has been paying attention for even five minutes knows this not to be true, in many ways it is not the point.

I totally agree, and I personally think GC people should use this as an argument more than the safety issue. When you argue with transactivists based on safety for women it automatically frames the argument as an injustice to MTF trans people, they are the injured party and the risk of women being raped (and they will say there is no evidence or just a few isolated cases) can't possibly be a good enough reason to deny MTF trans people their sovereign human rights.

If you talk about privacy and dignity they have to acknowledge some form of clash of rights, even if they handwave it away as insignificant and unimportant. But doing that makes them look like the misogynists they are. And why should male feelings trump women's? It's an easier case to argue, I think.

Our privacy and dignity is important. We are allowed to have boundaries.

Ereshkigal · 09/01/2020 09:19

I imagine the Times comments will take a while to moderate but there are a few good ones there already.

Igneococcus · 09/01/2020 06:26

Times article today:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/joan-mcalpine-msp-calls-trans-rights-research-insult-to-cancer-patients-222wgbgrq?shareToken=cd6f2fc4b5bb8b76cb348ac16dbfe322

I'll try putting a link to the consultations into the comments once I'm at work.

NotAssigned · 09/01/2020 05:58

In the link littlebrowndog provides, it refers to women as 'non trans women'. How have we got to a point where 51% of the population have to be referred to in relation to 0.3%?

Also, the arguments about TW in women's spaces always focus on whether they are a predatory risk. In the article it is claimed that they are no more of a risk than women. While anyone who has been paying attention for even five minutes knows this not to be true, in many ways it is not the point.

I don't want a person with a penis (or a person who previously owned a penis) in women-only spaces, even if they are the nicest person in the world. I want to be free of the male gaze in such spaces.

NonnyMouse1337 · 08/01/2020 08:34

Is Ireland considered to be one of those 'best practice' places?
I've heard the transgender legislation there had more 'protections' built in... Yet this link seems to indicate some 'difficult' issues are emerging. Hmm

www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

Daughterofmabel · 07/01/2020 15:45

excellent thanks.

Luckystar777 · 07/01/2020 15:37

Thanks @PlayYouLikeAShark I shall hold off until the other information is out.

MoleSmokes · 07/01/2020 15:22

Excellent thread by Malcolm Clark ( @TwisterFilm on Twitter) about Malta GRA "best practice" as cited in Scotland GRA Consultation:

Twitter: twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1213592230256168962
Archived: archive.ph/JPxwm

Threadreader: threadreaderapp.com/thread/1213592230256168962.html
Threadreader archive: archive.ph/bA603

"A thread on why trans rights might not be as much of a progressive badge as it's claimed. And why Malta provides a warning. The Scottish govt claims its GR Reform Bill will "advance Scotland's reputation as one of the most progressive countries.." and it's answer to any....

2./ ..concerns raised is a blanket assurance that it has analysed risks exhaustively. Really? The new Bill creates a glaring loophole in making a Gender Recognition Certificate easier to obtain. Instead of a 2 year process with expert medical supervision a person will need ...

3./ ..to spend only 3 months living in their "new gender" with no medical or psychiatric assessment (plus a token cooling period). To listen to some trans activists you'd think a touch of nail polish is enough to prove you've lived as a woman, so who will judge which males are ..

4./...really "women"? Step forward Tim Ellis, the Registrar General who also heads up National Records of Scotland, the very same people who have been trying to change questions on the Scottish census to make it super-woke, & recently defended a hilarious drop-down..

5./ ...menu of options for sexual orientation that included "demiromantic". Don't ask. They might as well have given the job to a random trans activist for all the safeguarding he'll be doing. In the future there really will be nothing to stop any bloke in..

6./ ...Scotland who says he's feeling his inner female from getting full legal recognition as a woman. Nothing except a solemn vow that he's (she's) telling the truth. Thankfully, it's well known how off-putting solemn vows are to that determined minority of men who have malign..

7./ .. intentions. So is this safe? Rest assured we're told. Other pioneer countries have done all the careful research for us. Places like Malta. When Scotland was named number one for LGBT rights in Europe in 2015 there was only one country that got higher praise by "experts" :

8./.. Malta. You see Malta had gender recognition and was one of the pioneers of the same non-medical self-identification that Scotland now wants to introduce and it was this that in 2017 that helped Malta seize no 1 position from Scotland altogether.
www.equality-network.org/scotland-loses-european-top-spot-for-lgbti-equality/

9./ Scotland was clearly going to have to get some of Malta's 'best practise' But how did Malta come to exemplify this 'best practise'; and can we take comfort by how carefully it was introduced there? Judge for yourself how important safety was for Malta from a story that starts

10./.. in 2003 when international LGBTi organisation, ILGA, was in deep trouble. For a decade it had tried to recover its UN accredited NGO status it lost when paedophile groups were linked to it. Here's ILGA's rather white-washed take on the scandal
ilga.org/ilga-ecosoc-status-controversy

11./ Semi-bankrupt, it moved its HQ to that of a small gay rights group in Malta, where local ILGA official Ruth Baldacchino began to focus on lobbying close to home. Malta has a smaller population than Glasgow so it wasn't long before her campaign began to gain traction.

12./ It also helped that the following year Malta joined the EU and local politicians were keen to find a way to sprinkle sparkle over their tiny nation's rather dubious reputation for corruption and nepotism. None more so than one of its first MEPs a rising star, Joseph Muscat.

13./ When Muscat was elected Labour leader in 2008 he and his circle embraced Baldacchino and ILGA's mish-mash of gender identity ideas and in 2013 when he became Malta's PM he fast-tracked the Bill that would soon be celebrated as "best practise". Forget that women's...

14./ ..rights were so secondary in Malta that it's still the only EU country to ban abortion in ALL circumstances. So little thought was given to how to enact the Bill that 3 years later transwomen prisoners sued the govt for leaving them in limbo.
timesofmalta.com/articles/view/compensation-for-transgender-prisoners-kept-in-male-section-despite.680338

15./ So why the rush? Maybe Equalities Minister Helena Dalli sussed that merely following other countries' lead on gay rights wouldn't be good enough. To get noticed, to gain plaudits, you have to go further. Number One. It's the same pressure SNP Ministers are responding to now.

16./ Was Dalli well-intentioned? A local journalist claimed her obsession with trans rights was a cover for her prime focus, nepotism. That may be unfair, but it certainly doesn't sound like Dalli was probing any safeguarding issues.
daphnecaruanagalizia.com/2017/08/mrs-patrick-dallis-definition-progress-cabinet-ministers-family-put-state-payroll-nepotism/

  1. As for the guy who drafted Dalli's 'best practise" Bill Scotland is now shamelessly apeing...he did so despite being convicted of sending revenge porn to his gay partner's workplace the year before.
    www.independent.com.mt/articles/2014-05-12/news/helena-dalli-defends-decision-to-retaincyrus-engerer-as-consultant-4963729408/

  2. As Jack Lemmon said, "Nobody's perfect" So if he & Dalli weren't best placed to judge ethical dilemmas raised by their Bill, who was? Maybe it was Muscat the new PM who pushed the Bill through? Maybe. All we know for sure is that 2 years after the 'best practise' Bill was..

19./..passed Daphne Galizia, the journalist who'd criticized Dalli & who'd been following corrupt money to the heart of the Labour government was blown up in a car bomb. The man accused claims Joseph Muscat's office was involved. The fact Azerbaijani money is...

20./ ..implicated & Muscat was for years an EU link to Azerbaijan may be coincidental. What it does suggest is we should be suspicious of parties & politicians that fix on trans rights as a new progressive cause without thinking it through. It could just be displacement activity.

21./ We should also be wary of mumbo jumbo about 'international best practise' circulated by lobby groups with a narrow agenda. Malta was presented as a shining beacon. But some of its leaders who championed the sort of legislation the SNP is now intent on introducing may have..

22./..connived in unspeakable crimes. As citizens, we've a right & a duty to examine this proposed legislation fearlessly. We should probe every claim, question every assertion. Daphne Galizia, blown up in the country of so-called "best practise", would expect nothing less.

Daughterofmabel · 07/01/2020 14:19

Also a member of TELI. So a Trans Rights Activist who presents himself as an impartial scholar
hmm why am I not surprised. When I saw this was 'academic' evidence I wondered what sort of an academic coudl write such s**t

PlayYouLikeAShark · 07/01/2020 13:58

" I want to respond, but I don't know what to say on it etc. Any help/advice would be most welcome, thanks. "

LuckyStar, there's work going on just now to review the consultation & produce guidance to help you. ETA is about end Jan/early feb & hopefully the guidance will help you articulate what it is you want to say & how to express your own experiences of the impact unregulated Male inclusion in female provisions has had/is having.

The closing date is 17th March so there's plenty of time & the longer we hold off, the more up to date information can be included.

Kantastic · 07/01/2020 13:07

What do they think women's changing rooms are FOR? They appear to believe the purpose of a changing room is for us all to check each other out and assign each other marks out of 10 or some shit, and all the mean girls will get upset if someone who doesn't conform to beauty standards dares to join in the parade.

Here is a clue, monitors: women's changing rooms are for women to get changed in safety and privacy. Specifically, in a space where we will have safety and privacy from men.