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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Morning Star/Mumsnet shout out

34 replies

MockneyReject · 03/01/2020 21:49

www.facebook.com/groups/CommunistPartySupporters/permalink/2733162856770110/

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Goosefoot · 08/01/2020 20:52

I’ve never heard anyone before argue that Marx didn’t want the socialist transformation of the world he wrote about to actually happen.

Marx was a sort of Hegelian. Hegel believed in something he called the World Spirit, a sort of impersonal god which revealed itself more and more over time through history.

Marx believed in a materialist version of this idea, over time, there was an interaction between classes or social groups that would play out and go through certain stages, until it finally was fully formed and reached a sort of ideal state. He called this, after Hegel, a dialectic. Each of these social or economic stages contained problems or contradictions that would create a sort of crises or collapse, and then there would be a reformation that solved or brought together the contradiction into a higher form of society. This would go on until you reached the highest form that did not contain any more contradictions.

Some of his discussion is of historical examples of these stages and how they are true to his theory, and his discussion of capitalism is about what he thinks the contradictions are that will cause its failure. And then he also discusses what the resolution of that will be and the final state.

But the thing is, this is a historical process, you can't just come up with the final stage without going through the others because they are all important. None of the attempts at establishing actual communist states really even correspond to what Marx wrote. All of them involved peasant societies doing mainly agricultural work for example whereas Marx said the final society would come out of an industrialised kind of economy. And that was to be about the proletariate, the actual people themselves, owning their own labour, and the disappearance of the capitalist class. Not about some sort of elite group trying to force that to happen through state ownership of capital. That's not a historical dialectic. And if its not a historical dialectic its not Marx.

MoleSmokes · 08/01/2020 18:49

Thanks for posting that link MockneyReject

By a strange coincidence, last week a friend was bemoaning the fact that the guy who posted the Mumsnet link (Martin Levy) did not stand in the General Election as usual and was wondering if he was still around.

My mate does not do Facebook but at least I can tell him that Martin is still alive and kicking - and apparently lurks on Mumsnet! He's never going to believe me if I tell him that! Smile

BlackForestCake · 08/01/2020 01:07

I am not really sure how you come to those conclusions Goosefoot. Marx was the one who said “the philosophers have only interpreted the world, but the point is to change it”. I’ve never heard anyone before argue that Marx didn’t want the socialist transformation of the world he wrote about to actually happen.

Goosefoot · 07/01/2020 14:25

Marxism was never meant to be used to set up a government. It was meant to describe the movement of history, why societies look a certain way, and analyse what problems or contradictions would lead to social/economic failures. Marx also gave his views about how those problems would resolve, historically speaking, in the long term.

While many people may have some doubts about his predictions about how things would come to a state of rest, his class or analysis of the relations of groups is considered pretty widely to be very useful. Even if sometimes it may be applied in ways that aren't appropriate and he didn't intend. And similarly his criticisms of the contradictions of capitalism are considered to be quite strong - the big crash of 2008 can certainly be looked at in that light and it actually sparked something of a renewal of interest in Marx.

Attempts to create Marx's vision, which really make no sense in terms of his philosophy, are almost beside the point. Even if he is 100% right about how things will play out they could never work because the correct conditions haven't been met.

TheTigersBride · 07/01/2020 13:35

There is a difference between Marxism as a social philosophy, ideal / ideological communism / socialism and actually existing Communist governments

I was commenting on posts in this thread where Communism was being promoted as actually being good- not merely a theory- but thanks for the feministplaining.

Socialism / Marxism is a structural, class based analysis of society which is why it fits with feminist analysis

In your opinion. Given how useless this theoretical analysis is in practice I would not give it such weight.

moofolk · 07/01/2020 11:57

Often not really (not bit really!)

moofolk · 07/01/2020 11:56

@TheTigersBride

There is a difference between Marxism as a social philosophy, ideal / ideological communism / socialism and actually existing Communist governments.

Socialism / Marxism is a structural, class based analysis of society which is why it fits with feminist analysis.

This does not mean that Stalin was a feminist. Men who rise to power are often bit really believers in the ideology they claim, but power hungry bastards; just look at the church, or abusive yoga teachers to see that.

Ideological socialists can see the class based oppression of women and how trans ideology is fundamentally at odds with challenging that.

youkiddingme · 04/01/2020 22:21

What Uncompromisingwoman said

Thank you for sharing

Newuser123123 · 04/01/2020 18:32

I wouldn't take much notice of what I say tbh, certainly not advocating communism as a means to women's liberation (although I do like Marx's writing)

I just really like the way gender is discussed in this way - I have a young left-wing friendship group who I am struggling to convince, I think they view me as a pearl clutcher, so this will help me articulate the argument to them.

Not everyone will feel the same way, I just felt it was helpful x

Uncompromisingwoman · 04/01/2020 17:59

I've never been in thrall to the communists TheTigersBride and am old enough to remember the misery they inflicted on so many populations. But I do note that they seem to understand sex based oppression, allow democratic debate (if that facebook thread is anything to go by) and have no truck with the repeated bullying and silencing of women - and given how rare this is in our current political parties, I'll acknowledge it as positive.

TheTigersBride · 04/01/2020 17:52

Newuser123123 says and they [Communists] understand where women rank in a capitalist patriarchy

If you scroll down the linked website Facebook page you will find articles supportive of Nicolae and Elena Ceaușescu- the Ceauşescus ranked women as breeding machines.

So is this a bit like the Daily Mail arguments - because a lot of people don't like their politics, nothing they say can ever be correct?

Who is "they"? The writer of one particular article? Or , as the poster I'm quoting is referring, to Communism in general?

Uncompromisingwoman · 04/01/2020 17:02

Thank you. I didn't get your stretch from the quote to the suggestion that this was "promoting communism as a force for good"
So is this a bit like the Daily Mail arguments - because a lot of people don't like their politics, nothing they say can ever be correct?

TheTigersBride · 04/01/2020 16:44

Uncompromisingwoman

Which posts are you referring toTheTigersBride

I am referring to the post made by Newuser123123 at 08.17. You posted immediately after her post. I quoted the post I was referring to. What is puzzling you? But if you are still unclear here is Newuser123123s full post.

This resonates for me so much more because they get the 'it's not fair' angle so much better than the right wing, free speech, conservatives Communists make it their business to understand oppression and they understand where women rank in a capitalist patriarchy

Anyone saying Communists "get the it's not fair angle" has a serious misunderstanding of how Communism has worked in practice although she is certainly correct in the statement that Communists understand oppression.

FloralFestiveBunting · 04/01/2020 14:43

Communism, as a political viewpoint, is as ripe for good or ill as most other political viewpoints. If mixed with totalitarianism, it's pernicious, as is Capitalism. But that would lead me to the conclusion that Totalitarianism is the true negative there, not class analysis per se.

But as has been mentioned, the cheering point here is materialists actually defending material reality and not being bullied by neo-religionists.

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 04/01/2020 14:11

Is anyone seriously still promoting Communism as a force for good?

At least they’re standing up for female rights, which is a bloody sight more than our woke politicians and organisations are.

Uncompromisingwoman · 04/01/2020 14:10

Which posts are you referring to TheTigersBride ?

TheTigersBride · 04/01/2020 13:48

Communists make it their business to understand oppression and they understand where women rank in a capitalist patriarchy

Communists make it their business to understand oppression so that they can more effectively apply it. If your ideology relies on effective suppression of individual rights and free speech an understanding of how oppression works will certainly be useful.

Is anyone seriously still promoting Communism as a force for good?

Al1cewith2020vision · 04/01/2020 12:11

From the page our binary view of sex and gender is a colonial one

Bless.

Joisanofthedales · 04/01/2020 11:39

Is it wrong that my favourite reply to Adam Murray was - I don't want a civil debate, I just want you to shut up?

Joisanofthedales · 04/01/2020 11:36

Enjoyed reading that. Smile

WhereYouLeftIt · 04/01/2020 11:23

Ooh, thanks for the link! Refreshing reading, and after all the you're-in-bed-with-the-far-right crap I've seen on Twitter it's lovely to see people who couldn't (reasonably) be accused of being far-right sharing a lot of our concerns. Lovely, but not surprising, since class analysis is used by both.

(Of course, it's entirely possible the TRAs would argue that "Communist Party of Britain supporters group" are indeed far-right. Just another redefinition of words, to them.)

I was intrigued by the Like/Haha's on Adam's posts. Turned out most were Haha'ing his posts, and after his "You all need some serious equality education" post only Richard Firth was Like'ing. I thought I recognised his face, and he is indeed the same Richard Firth involved in the last-minute cancelation of the booking for A Woman's Place meeting in Leeds Civic Hall back in 2018 ( medium.com/@JonnnyBest/welcome-to-leeds-women-now-shut-up-c00da13e38c0 ).

Also liked the comment "Every left site I go him and his ( all white all Male ) buddies are on there hurling insults and generally being obnoxious." It suggests MN is not alone in being stalked, but multiple 'left' sites maybe being 'monitored' for wrongthink. Well, tough, boys - the Communist Party of Britain supporters group have got your number, and they have the knowledge to refute your posturing beautifully.

XXcstatic · 04/01/2020 10:13

Wow, how refreshing. Thanks for posting, OP.

My favourite comment so far (in reference to Adam Murray's NI background): "Northern Ireland is trans-British" Grin

Uncompromisingwoman · 04/01/2020 09:50

What an excellent intelligent read. So good to see informed debate - and the one person using the 'shut up bigots and transphobes' approach having his arse handed to him on a plate.

Newuser123123 · 04/01/2020 08:17

This resonates for me so much more because they get the 'it's not fair' angle so much better than the right wing, free speech, conservatives. Communists make it their business to understand oppression and they understand where women rank in a capitalist patriarchy.

JanesKettle · 04/01/2020 01:43

Nice to see an island of leftist sanity.