$13mn compensation for pornography

I'd suggest a watch of "hot girls wanted" on netflix to get an idea of what porn actresses end up in, even when they think they are fully consenting to work in the industry.

We need to focus on the producers and consumers of porn (mainly men) and their desire for inexperienced porn stars rather than the girls and young women who initially think this is a good career.

But anyway. It doesnt matter the bigger question, if those women were unaware how the material they filmed would be used then they weren't consenting and that's illegal/breach of contract.

Fluffy do you agree that if a woman initially consents to sex but changes her mind and asks to stop, then to continue is rape? Do you agree that if a woman consents to some things sexually but is forced into doing other sex acts that this is rape? Do you think that because ched evans’ accuser consented to shag one footballer that she consented to shag a whole bunch of them?

The logic that you are using here, that some rape is not real rape depending on the type of woman that it happens to is one of the reasons why rape conviction rates are so disgustingly low. You are perpetuating a culture in which men feel free to rape, because of these low conviction rates, so you yourself are harming all women with your bullshit rhetoric. So you are a fine one to point the finger at prostituted women. Imho.

The crime of rape is either abhorrent or it’s not
It is abhorrent but it's not as simple as that.
Statutory rape is a strict liability crime, like speeding, where if you've done it, it doesn't matter whether you meant to or not. (Was there sexual contact between an adult and a child, yes/no.) Bear in mind this is the theory!

Rape is generally really poorly prosecuted (as is statutory rape unfortunately) and part of what Germaine Greer got roasted for trying to explore is the problem whereby there is a sliding scale of awfulness, where being gangraped, mutilated and murdered is on one side and a questionable drunken fuck both parties regret the next day is the other end of the scale (I can't think of a non-awful rape scenario so sorry if that comes across as dismissive).

There are crimes on the "less awful" side but courts are prosecuting based on what they consider as the "most awful" side. Greer suggested that lesser penalties (but more of them) would achieve greater justice than stiff prison sentences but only a 3% conviction rate, which is pretty much what we've got.

So I guess I'm of the view that not all rapes are created equal, in the same way not all assaults are. Rape is much more invasive and has the potential to create unwanted pregnancy or psychological trauma as well as physical damage, so in my view it should always be seen as more serious than non-sexual violence, but within the crime there are degrees.

How we capture that I have no idea, like I said it was difficult to think of a non-awful scenario - it's easy to see which are the worst but hard to argue which are the least-worst.

However I'd argue within that, rape or sexual torture that is broadcast and which creates additional psychological distress is more damaging for the victim. So rape porn should be prosecuted against with that in mind.

The crime of rape is either abhorrent or it’s not. The “type” of woman that it happens to is of no relevance.

At it’s heart sex is about pleasure (and procreation). The fact we have become so dysfunctional as a species that we have fetishised abuse as arousing wether or not consent is present or contracts have been signed should be a red flag to anyone feminist or not.

These were three women out of 22 who brought action. We'll never know how many other victims there were.

I counted five rapes in the testimony of the three women in the affidavit. Two rapes did not happen on set.

Agreed, Pencils.

Cwenthryth, you asked How people can watch these videos if they know that the women are being lied to, plied with alcohol & drugs etc... - you attribute way, way too much in the way of conscience to these men.

Either they just don’t care in the slightest, or, as FlyingOink says, they actively get off on the abuse of these vulnerable women.

Some men - the ones who watch porn - are very good at dehumanising women. Man (and his right to sexual pleasure/orgasm) as subject, woman as object (whose feelings and needs don’t even need to be considered), as usual.

The women responded to an ad for modelling then were flown across the country and put in fancy hotels. It was then revealed that they were to do porn but female stooges reassured them it would be foreign DVD only and it would take about an hour. They were also told they’d be liable for the hotel and flight costs if they didn’t do it, while stranded in a new city. Some were plied with alcohol and drugs. All were rushed and pushed into signing a contract. It would take a lot of determination and guts to back out at this point, bearing in mind this company were experts at conning and coercing.

During the 4 hour (not 1hour) porn shoot, at least one objected to the pain and bleeding and asked to stop, repeatedly. But she was told it would be a breach of contract so she had to get on with it. Sounds awfully like rape to me. But whatever you think it is, these women have been abused, and then their lives subsequently and intentionally destroyed. Several suicide attempts among them. One has had lots of plastic surgery to try to stop being recognised.

Yesterday , Vice was pushing some video about a bloke having to discuss his porn acting with his grandma. ‘How awkward!’ Was the premise to the story. The contrast is quite extreme.

I don't read Hippo's posts as any sort of feminism.

To suggest any kind of comparison is setting up a straw man of the worst sort.

How so? If hoodathunkit sees parallels how can you be sure she is wrong and that there is no comparison?

You clearly blamed porn performers for "impinging on other women" earlier. Taken to the next logical position, if women are encouraged to avoid entering the sex trade willingly (which is a good thing, obviously), what happens when the porn or prostitution industries have insufficient women to exploit?
They just kidnap or traffic them. India for example has a burgeoning porn market, much of which is filmed rape. It's largely due to data speeds on smartphones making mobile porn a possibility. But there are not many women would would go into "glamour modelling" or "cam girl" work so almost all homegrown content is filmed rape, sometimes of prostituted women.

In that case the women involved are still, by your reckoning, "impinging on other women", and contributing to the porn industry too, but against their will.

hoodathunkit , your situation was nothing like these women's situtation.

To suggest any kind of comparison is setting up a straw man of the worst sort.

I disagree

I was groomed when I was living in poverty with a disfunctional and abusive family

Most of the Jane Doe's in the porn scam were vulnerable and in need of financial assistance

I was groomed and coerced via false promises and lies

Just like the Jane Does were

I experienced a "bait and switch" in which the choices I made were part of a scam, a crime a deception which took me down a long twisty rabbit hole of gaslighting, shame, blackmail and basically my life going down the drain

Just like the Jane Does

Of course my situation was not identical to theirs, but there are many similarities

Have you read a first person account of one of the Jane Does?

Here, read this and then tell me that this young woman does not deserve out support

www.thedailybeast.com/she-was-18-and-tricked-into-doing-porn-this-ruined-my-life

hoodathunkit , your situation was nothing like these women's situtation.

To suggest any kind of comparison is setting up a straw man of the worst sort.

I love when I get told that 'my' kind of feminism isn't the right kind of feminism by a bunch of women who're trying so hard to be cool girls that they've lost sight of the basic fact that we're all responsible for our actions and how they impinge on other women.

I was groomed, trafficked and tortured by a pimp.

I am a former sex worker.

I would just like to aplogise to the whole of woman kind for the bad choices I made that, er, hurt other women.

There I was thinking that I'm a survivor and doing my best to help other women (and sometimes vulnerable men too), but now thanks to your epic and illuminating thoughts I can see that all the time I was being groomed trafficked and tortured that I was really just an oppressor. Oh and trying to be cool. Or something.

Thanks so much for helping me see the light FluffyHippo

Ever thought of a career as a life coach? You'd fit in very well with life coach community whose views resonate very closely with your own

Jesus, do you really want to make this the hill you die on? A bunch of wannabe porn stars having their contracts breached? Really?
"A bunch of wannabe porn stars" are still women, they were still lied to, coerced and had their lives ruined. I'm happy to stand for all women, even ones you might think are stupid or selfish. Because they are victims whether you think they deserve what they got or not.

'my' kind of feminism isn't the right kind of feminism if you are selective in which kind of women you support you aren't a feminist. I would argue that if you blame women for their poor choices and fail to recognise the circumstances in which the odds were stacked against them you aren't very analytical either.

I love when I get told that 'my' kind of feminism isn't the right kind of feminism by a bunch of women who're trying so hard to be cool girls that they've lost sight of the basic fact that we're all responsible for our actions and how they impinge on other women.

Jesus, do you really want to make this the hill you die on? A bunch of wannabe porn stars having their contracts breached? Really?

Don't patronise me, QuentinWinters. They consented to appear in porn for money and they're just pissed off because it reached a wider audience than they expected.

I do not believe that QuentinWinters was patronising you

Just calling you out on your lack of understanding about consent. And reality.

You see when a woman agrees to do one thing but is coerced or tricked into doing something she didn't consent to that is a violation.

Being a sex worker does not remove a person's right to make choices about a range of issues. Unless the sex worker concerned is living under Daesh or some other oppressive regime, or under your bizarre Gilead type version of feminism

hth

FluffyHippo’s posts are a very helpful example of when feminism becomes so extreme that it moves into misogyny.

Just as the far left and far right extremes of political movements often resemble one another, some elements of feminism, when taken to extremes, are basically misogynist.

FluffyHippo’s posts here are a very enlightening opportunity for those who are skeptical about the misogynist narratives inherent in some discourses around sex work to educate themselves about the reality of the situation.

As regular readers here will know, I have very serious reservations about pro-sex-work and sex-positive campaign groups and activist movements.

I believe that there are good and bad elements to the activist groups at both extremes of the spectrum and that the reality is nuanced and complex.

If anyone is interested in reading in depth about this particular scam the Daily Beast has been covering this story as it unfolded.

Most recent piece, with links to earlier reporting, here
www.thedailybeast.com/amateur-porn-company-girls-do-porn-hit-with-dollar12775m-in-damages-for-exploiting-young-women

That’s awful, and I can’t believe some of the victim blaming comments on here. My feminism is for all women because all women are hurt by patriarchy. My feminism doesn’t go ‘nope love you can fuck off, you’re on your own because at age 18/20/22 you didn’t have enough sense to reject all the cultural messages females are bombarded with from birth about how we only exist to please men’. A choice made within the context of grooming isn’t a choice. A choice made because of financial necessity isn’t a choice. A choice made in the context of living in a patriarchal society which conditions all women and girls to comply or suffer the consequences isn’t a choice. Ffs what is wrong with some people

Did you read the affidavit I linked Hippo?

I hope not because anyone who can read that and still post 'serves them right' type stuff is a disgusting human being.

I don't see why you would focus on her.

It's to take the focus off the men. It happens whenever the sex industry is discussed.

is a woman who agrees to get involved in this stuff selfish, greedy or just plain stupid?
It doesn't matter if she is all three!
The woman who agrees to get involved is invariably mistreated, cheated out of money and doesn't profit much from her involvement. I don't see why you would focus on her.

They consented to appear in porn for money and they're just pissed off because it reached a wider audience than they expected.
They were never going to be the perfect victims, but I understand it was a bit more exploitative than that.
Creating a line between "good" women who have their private videos stolen and "bad" women who agree to have sex on tape for money ignores the fact that there is a massive industry that encourages and profits off both in the same way.

Nah, I'm not buying all this hand-wringing. These women willingly agreed to get involved in an industry that degrades, abuses and hurts women as a matter of course and now they're the victims? If you choose to swim with sharks, expect to get bitten.

I think some of you need to read some of the excellent threads on here about how porn harms women, both as an industry and a major contributor to toxic masculinity. Then ask yourself: is a woman who agrees to get involved in this stuff selfish, greedy or just plain stupid?

Anonymous emails were sent to their families, universities and friends, linking them to the videos.

This is the part that really fucking gets to me. It's just such an utterly cruel and vile thing to do for no other reason other than to get off on ruining the lives of these women. Don't get me wrong, grooming, raping and deceiving the women about where their videos would be made available was wrong. But I can see how the company owners could be doing it for profit with the women seen as nothing but collateral damage in their business model. It's fucking hideous but would mean that profit was their main motive.

But going on to send the video links in emails to everyone the women knew was something else. In fact it was something that would end up destroying their business model because having the women not know what happened to their videos for as long as possible was essential to allowing them to operate for longer. So for these men, actively destroying young women was clearly the number one goal. The profit was an incidental bonus but not the purpose. They actively set out to ruin women's lives for their own perversion.

According to the affidavits Rubin Andre Garcia is a serial rapist. He raped and assaulted women both on and off set.