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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

York theatre royal toilets

192 replies

pigsknickers · 02/01/2020 19:57

I visited today and was irritated to find that one of the two women's toilets is now unisex (and yes the men still have two to themselves). Here's the text of the email I've written them; I'm planning to c&p it to any venues I come across who've pulled this stunt from now on. Awaiting waffle bollocks response.

"I visited the theatre today with my mum and two small children, and I want to tell you how appalled we were to find you've designated one of the two female toilet facilities as unisex, while the men still have two single sex facilities. There are so many reasons why we found this to be a misjudged move on your part:

  1. Women need more, not fewer public toilets than men. We are often looking after small children or elderly female relatives in the toilets. We need more time and space to deal with menstruation (which we really don't want to do in a shared space with men). Many venues suffer from long queues to use the ladies' as it is. When I visited today, the toilets in question were full of women trying to toilet their children, with men adding to the overcrowding (while there was a men-only facility just next door). Yes, I could have used the women-only toilets upstairs, but with two small children in tow I had neither the time nor the energy to drag them up two flights of stairs.
  2. Men's toilets are dirty. Men tell us this all the time; many men take steps to ensure they won't have to use a cubicle while they're out, because men urinate on the seats and floor. This gets worse in venues where alcohol is served.
  3. Women need privacy away from men when performing intimate functions. I sometimes have very heavy periods, and do not want to wash blood off my hands while standing next to a man. I don't want a man to overhear me explain to my three year old what a sanitary towel is.
  4. Women in states of vulnerability are not safe in shared sex spaces. Your cubicles are not even floor-to-ceiling; you are making it easier for predatory males to intimidate, harass and attack women and girls.
  5. Women have fought long and hard for single-sex provision so that they have equal access to public life. Both the WHO and UNICEF emphasise the importance of single-sex toilets in protecting girls in developing countries from rape, and allowing them to participate in public life. Without adequate toilet provision, women and girls in this country too would have their safety and dignity compromised whenever they leave the house. I would be very interested to know what Equality Impact and Risk Assessments were carried out before this change was implemented.
  6. It is just not acceptable that men now have access to 2.5 of 4 toilet facilities, while women - who I presume make up at least 50% of your clientele (I would guess more based on today's audience) - only have access to 1.5 of them. I anticipate an explanation that this change was made to make better provision for transgender people, and while this may be a laudable aim, I invite you to consider why it was deemed appropriate to remove a significant proportion of your female customers' toilet provision. This sends a very clear message that you value your female customers less than any other demographic, and for this reason I will not be visiting the Theatre Royal in the foreseeable future."
OP posts:
pigsknickers · 26/01/2020 14:05

Lord no, tellingly, they haven't. Unless they were trying to imply it's all for the dads with young children.

OP posts:
KnucklesMcGinty · 26/01/2020 14:04

Thanks @TheInebriati. Could the venue argue that because they have single sex toilets upstairs, they are complying with the law?
Not that I ever go to the theatre or anywhere near York, but I'd like to have all the info in case I encounter this elsewhere.

Lordfrontpaw · 26/01/2020 14:02

Exactly who are they ‘including’ here? Have they said?

Dolorabelle · 26/01/2020 13:56

Maybe part of the answer is that - for those of us who can do this and not feel too uncomfortable - women should start using those RIDICULOUS “Gender neutral with urinals” toilets wherever these are sign posted.

We have protested this hurly burly handing over of women’s loos to “Gender neutral with cubicles“ and complained that the “gender neutral with urinals” are not fit for women to use.

But let’s use them. Let’s subject men to the potential discomfort and/or embarrassment that we women are being subjected to.

If MEN start complaining you can bet that something will be done.

Thelnebriati · 26/01/2020 13:49

KnucklesMcGinty
There are only 2 types of toilet in the standards; single sex and self contained.
Mixed sex toilets with shared sinks are not up to standard, so they are the ones that should be on the top floor.

pigsknickers · 26/01/2020 13:42

Autumnrose I've used toilets and changing rooms like the ones you describe on the continent, going back years, decades probably - and they always made me feel pretty uncomfortable. I've definitely been made to feel like a prude many times for being squeamish about sharing toilets etc with men, while being aware that for most women there it didn't seem to be a big deal (although I'm sure it always had caused problems there too).

But - if that's long been the cultural/societal norm in other countries, then addressing that is a very different fight to the one we're currently being dragged into here. We're being gaslit into accepting that societal norms are changing here, and that it's not considered inappropriate, uncomfortable, unsafe etc for females and males to share thes facilities, when we know that to be completely untrue. It's this lie that everyone is fine with it that makes me so angry, as much as the fact of it, iyswim.

OP posts:
AutumnRose1 · 26/01/2020 12:11

Michelle "What the hell has happened in our society that exposing a nine year old little girl to blokes with their penises out at urinals is being framed as 'inclusion' when a year ago it would have been basic common sense unthinkable?"

IKR?!

In terms of choices of types of bathroom, I think a previous poster on another thread explained that it's often the ground floor that's converted to unisex, I think it's really unfair to elderly and disabled people.

I'll probably get flamed for this but this isn't something that started in the UK is it. My late father complained, about 10 years ago now, on holiday in various places, about urinals being in loos where women and children were pleasant. He made the comment to museum staff and station staff and was treated as a prude, essentially.

Michelleoftheresistance · 26/01/2020 11:41

What the hell has happened in our society that exposing a nine year old little girl to blokes with their penises out at urinals is being framed as 'inclusion' when a year ago it would have been basic common sense unthinkable?

I defy York theatre or anyone else to show me policy or guidance or definitions of 'inclusion' that mean 'hurl safeguarding, privacy and dignity out of the window'.

One of the things I am most angry with the TRA politicial lobby is their appropriation of the word and concept of 'inclusion' and having bent it so badly out of shape that it will soon become a disliked word and concept that people will hear and immediately switch off to, as it's been twisted to mean anything but what it originally meant. It was about equality of opportunity for all; adding to, not taking away from others; with reasonable adjustments and fair impact assessment. It was about spaces that worked for everybody. If it left a group harmed, angry, resentful, it wasn't bloody inclusion!

So thanks a bunch from the disabled population. Selfish appropriation harms others.

HorseWithNoLangCleg · 26/01/2020 10:14

Thank you for doing this OP.

Am looking forward to future developments.

SisyphusLangClegRocks · 26/01/2020 09:56

Excellent letter @pigsknickers

theflushedzebra · 26/01/2020 09:17

Yay Katvon Grin

The only chance we've got against this tide of taking away women's toilet provision is for large numbers of women to complain loudly.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 26/01/2020 09:00

Right, the gloves are off. My mum's going in.
Her friend went this summer and was really upset by it. Queer activists won't care, but forcing older women to climb stairs just because they took away their single sex spaces is not on.

I'm like YOU HAVE TO COMPLAIN!!!

ThinEndoftheWedge · 26/01/2020 08:05

@Signifyingnothing

If you have already written to them and received a response, could you reply to them using the info in the thread?

What happen to you with your 9 yr old is awful and the fob off with the ‘inclusive’ bullshit is not legal/acceptable. Everyone should be included - your little girl is just as important as everyone else. As a minor - I would argue more so.

Every initial email and rebuttal to fob offs count.. particularly if they have received other complaints.

MarieG10 · 26/01/2020 07:45

God, I won't be rushing to go there now. We went to another Event not far from York and husband said that women were just openly walking into the men's toilets and using their cubicles as fed up with waiting in the long queue

Mossyrock · 26/01/2020 07:08

Excellent letter OP.

KnucklesMcGinty · 26/01/2020 04:52

@Thelnebriati, do they legally need to have fully self-contained toilets & handbasins if they also have female toilets on another floor?

Signifyingnothing · 26/01/2020 00:18

Pigsknickers I went in there for a show this summer with my 9 yr old daughter. I took her to the downstairs womens toilet you mentioned but the queue was too long - she was desperate- and ended up outside a 'gender neutral' one floor up. I opened the door to two middle aged men at urinals.

I complained to them in an email and got the same response as you about inclusion.

It made me so mad to think that they were happy to put my 9yr old daughter in that position in order to accommodate male adults.

Thank you for not letting this drop.

I'm with you.

AutumnRose1 · 25/01/2020 22:18

I think I might write to the Mayor of London. All the organisations involved aren’t going to care so might be worth a try.

Thelnebriati · 25/01/2020 22:09

The standards for toilets are the law. 'Standards' mean legal standards.
The two types are single sex or single occupancy.

If they are single occupancy they must be completely self contained.

'Mixed sex toilets' are just single occupancy toilets within a room instead of being off a corridor.

AutumnRose1 · 25/01/2020 21:47

So, to be clear for my tired brain, the whole communal sink thing is illegal? Guidelines and law aren’t the same thing but maybe there’s no law that deals with this?

Qcng · 25/01/2020 21:43

Legally, mixed sex or unisex have to be individual cubicals with floor to ceiling doors and walls, a wash basin in the cubical. Like what you get on a plane or train, or disabled loo.

Anything else is against guidelines.

AutumnRose1 · 25/01/2020 21:35

Inebriati I’m just thinking, if there’s single sex provision on another floor, then it’s presumably okay?

My last two workplaces were breaking the law if it’s not okay to have mixed and separate options.

Thelnebriati · 25/01/2020 21:28

No they aren't doing this legally, they just haven't been challenged yet. Laws don't stop people doing things that are illegal, they lay out the boundaries, and if people are caught they can be challenged.

SarahTancredi · 25/01/2020 21:26

but presumably all these places are doing this legally.

More likely they are taking advice from what they believe to be reputable organisations like stonewall and assuming they have the legalities ironed out.

Either that or i don't honestly think that they would even consider toilets to have much of a legal basis beyond requiring them.

AutumnRose1 · 25/01/2020 21:17

Sorry if I’m being thick, but I can’t see the answer to my question, but presumably all these places are doing this legally.

The Wellcome have separate facilities on other floors.

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