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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

York theatre royal toilets

192 replies

pigsknickers · 02/01/2020 19:57

I visited today and was irritated to find that one of the two women's toilets is now unisex (and yes the men still have two to themselves). Here's the text of the email I've written them; I'm planning to c&p it to any venues I come across who've pulled this stunt from now on. Awaiting waffle bollocks response.

"I visited the theatre today with my mum and two small children, and I want to tell you how appalled we were to find you've designated one of the two female toilet facilities as unisex, while the men still have two single sex facilities. There are so many reasons why we found this to be a misjudged move on your part:

  1. Women need more, not fewer public toilets than men. We are often looking after small children or elderly female relatives in the toilets. We need more time and space to deal with menstruation (which we really don't want to do in a shared space with men). Many venues suffer from long queues to use the ladies' as it is. When I visited today, the toilets in question were full of women trying to toilet their children, with men adding to the overcrowding (while there was a men-only facility just next door). Yes, I could have used the women-only toilets upstairs, but with two small children in tow I had neither the time nor the energy to drag them up two flights of stairs.
  2. Men's toilets are dirty. Men tell us this all the time; many men take steps to ensure they won't have to use a cubicle while they're out, because men urinate on the seats and floor. This gets worse in venues where alcohol is served.
  3. Women need privacy away from men when performing intimate functions. I sometimes have very heavy periods, and do not want to wash blood off my hands while standing next to a man. I don't want a man to overhear me explain to my three year old what a sanitary towel is.
  4. Women in states of vulnerability are not safe in shared sex spaces. Your cubicles are not even floor-to-ceiling; you are making it easier for predatory males to intimidate, harass and attack women and girls.
  5. Women have fought long and hard for single-sex provision so that they have equal access to public life. Both the WHO and UNICEF emphasise the importance of single-sex toilets in protecting girls in developing countries from rape, and allowing them to participate in public life. Without adequate toilet provision, women and girls in this country too would have their safety and dignity compromised whenever they leave the house. I would be very interested to know what Equality Impact and Risk Assessments were carried out before this change was implemented.
  6. It is just not acceptable that men now have access to 2.5 of 4 toilet facilities, while women - who I presume make up at least 50% of your clientele (I would guess more based on today's audience) - only have access to 1.5 of them. I anticipate an explanation that this change was made to make better provision for transgender people, and while this may be a laudable aim, I invite you to consider why it was deemed appropriate to remove a significant proportion of your female customers' toilet provision. This sends a very clear message that you value your female customers less than any other demographic, and for this reason I will not be visiting the Theatre Royal in the foreseeable future."
OP posts:
Calmasasleepycat · 27/01/2020 09:57

Well done, what a good result!

SarahTancredi · 27/01/2020 09:55

Translation- shit you are right it's illegal?

Result. Well done !!

Babieseverywhere · 27/01/2020 09:55

Hurrah, well done everyone who complained and made a difference. You got womans toilets back !

pigsknickers · 27/01/2020 09:54

Charley I hope it didn't read as if I was implying that public nudity in Germany is in anyway coercive, I was trying to make the opposite point but I don't think I did so very coherently.
Anyway - a result - I've just received the following response from the theatre:

*Thank you for your emails regarding toilet provision here at York Theatre Royal.

I am grateful for you taking the time to share your concerns.

We implemented the change in the late summer, always with a view to reviewing this post Pantomime. I am able to confirm that we will be reverting to our previous layout from the first of February.

I hope this assuages your concerns, and thanks again for taking the time to contact us.

Best wishes,

Michael*

The complaints they've had about this MUST have had a bearing on their decision, so well done everyone who's written to them! This has definitely encouraged me to stick my neck out more in the future.

OP posts:
TurduckenFucken · 27/01/2020 06:47

Our local park has a row of individual unisex toilets, each room contains a toilet, sink and hand dryer. Big enough to get a pushchair in. Each one is a separate room, so no issues with privacy, upskirting etc and they’re all accessed from the path. Obviously retrofitting this type of arrangement into old buildings is tricky, but I think it’s only type of unisex toilet that works.

CharlieParley · 26/01/2020 21:01

I have - very rarely - encountered two types of mixed-sex toilets in Germany.

  1. Cubicles only, no urinals, sinks in the middle - I think that was a shopping centre and intended to allow parents to easily take opposite sex children to the toilet. Have never seen these anywhere else and do not know if this particular facility is still mixed-sex.
  1. A shared toilet and shower facility in my student halls. Urinals were located at the very back of the room, separated by a wall, so privacy was preserved. Women did not have to walk past a urinal to get to the cubicles.

This was owed entirely to the limitations of an old building retrofitted with sanitary facilities.

As for the nudity - yes, Germans in general are much more comfortable with much more nudity than your average Brit, but not every German.

Any type of nudity is always voluntary, always available as an alternate option alongside and where the sexes are seggregated while clothed, they are seggregated while nude, too.

And yes, people from other cultures are sometimes made fun of for being shocked at the nudity, or for refusing to join in, but throughout my life I have met many Germans who wouldn't dream of joining in and tell you that in no uncertain terms.

If you're not German, it may well be harder to say no, especially when you don't know the social expectations and rules and language barriers can also be an issue.

So if you are in Germany, join in if you like, or don't if you don't. You will not be thought any less of. Unless you seek out places or use a service at times where and when nudity is the norm.

EwwSprouts · 26/01/2020 20:37

*KnucklesMcGinty
Could the venue argue that because they have single sex toilets upstairs, they are complying with the law?

They could try, I guess it would depend on how easy it is to access them.*

KatVon I think this goes before Council for approval this week?
"Under council budget plans, cash could be invested in a trial of new tech to help vulnerable people, improvement work at York Theatre Royal and the creation of a pothole repair team.
The plans include £200K to trial robotic technology to improve social care, £500K to upgrade accessibility to York Theatre Royal..."
www.yorkmix.com/york-council-tax-to-rise-by-nearly-4-money-to-be-spent-on-pothole-repairs-social-care-robots-and-the-theatre-royal/

AutumnRose1 · 26/01/2020 16:51

Missing what have the school said?

MissingMySleep · 26/01/2020 15:40

It's mind boggling that suddenly we're prudish if we don't accept this bizarre arrangements.

My dd's school is building a new block of classrooms, the toilets in it will all be unisex.

We've yet to see what that means (there has been no consultation or communication to date) but the students think girls toilets and boys toilets separate with shared sink area (with cctv).

I doubt the girls or boys wanted this.

Lordfrontpaw · 26/01/2020 15:32

Soho - so near my office then! I’ve only seen the ones behind Paddington station (they stink to high heaven).

AutumnRose1 · 26/01/2020 15:22

Thanks pigs

Lord the ones in London are much worse. They don’t have a box. It’s a man peeing into a short metal stand and you can be dashing to a meeting in Soho at lunchtime and there he is! I think they were originally meant to be for after 11pm.

pigsknickers · 26/01/2020 15:18

Autumn you're not hijacking at all, in any case I've got nothing to add to the original point of the thread at the moment!

OP posts:
Lordfrontpaw · 26/01/2020 15:18

Dear god - they look like postboxes!

AutumnRose1 · 26/01/2020 15:17

Part of all this is not just equality, trans etc but a total erosion of privacy.

AutumnRose1 · 26/01/2020 15:16

Paris pissoir

edition.cnn.com/2018/08/14/europe/paris-urinal-intl/index.html

andyoldlabour · 26/01/2020 15:15

Thelnebriati

I keep hearing that as well, but have seen absolutely no instances of it in France, Belgium, Germany, Italy or Austria.

AutumnRose1 · 26/01/2020 15:15

Inebriati only reason I won't name is it's old information given to me by my late father and it's quite possible I haven't remembered it correctly.

I think he said he found it in France, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands.

A senior colleague went to a director's event in Finland and part of the evening was naked sauna - not sure if mixed. He declined and was quite narked to be laughed at. This was about 5 years ago. I can confirm that with him tomorrow, feel quite confident about that one.

pigsknickers · 26/01/2020 15:14

Autumn as far as I know it's always been fairly common for there to sometimes be shared facilities in eg France, at least since my childhood. I'm not saying it's not problematic, just that it's a very different beast.
It's a common stereotype that we Brits are prudes, but I'm ok with that because that's our norm. As a different example, many German people are ok with levels of public nudity that make me very uncomfortable. The nudity isn't necessarily a problem in a society where it's normal; nor is the discomfort a problem in a society where it isn't. I'm not sure what my point is exactly. Just that there's an added dimension of forced societal change and gaslighting, which I don't believe is present in countries on the continent where shared facilities are already fairly commonplace

OP posts:
andyoldlabour · 26/01/2020 15:13

Bearing in mind that unisex toilets with urinals will almost certainly ensure females inadvertantly seeing men's genitalia, then how come the laws on "indecent exposure" do not seem to apply?

www.localsolicitors.com/criminal-guides/indecent-exposure-laws-and-offences

Thelnebriati · 26/01/2020 15:11

I keep hearing its the cultural norm in 'other countries' but no one can name them.

AutumnRose1 · 26/01/2020 15:02

Has anyone been to the Old Vic lately - how's that working out?

OP, if you feel I am hijacking your thread - please do say - I started a list of toilets but the thread hasn't got much on it.

AutumnRose1 · 26/01/2020 15:01

Pigs "But - if that's long been the cultural/societal norm in other countries, then addressing that is a very different fight to the one we're currently being dragged into here"

but is it? I don't know how or why it started in other countries. Are we fighting against more than TRAs here? Because that's not going to help. Most threads on here, someone turns up with "they do it in xyz country and no one complains". So it's also the case that they have extra ammunition in this horribly global world.

it's like the awful pop up urinals in London. When I heard they were being introduced, I assumed an enclosed pod with a door was coming.

then I realised it was an open air thing for a guy to pee into - and apparently they have them in France dad said - and a few posters here named some other countries.

Inebriati yes, everywhere I've encountered this has a single sex loo somewhere in the building and I think that's how they get away with it. It would be nice if everyone refused to use the unisex ones.

When I was at the Wellcome, the majority of people looked thoroughly annoyed - and quite confused.

Thelnebriati · 26/01/2020 14:26

KnucklesMcGinty
Could the venue argue that because they have single sex toilets upstairs, they are complying with the law?

They could try, I guess it would depend on how easy it is to access them.

Beamur · 26/01/2020 14:21

On a linked topic, I parked my car recently in a car park which is part of a shopping mall. The toilets there are nice, new and generally very clean.
The men's toilets were partly closed off and the sign for the ladies had been replaced with one showing it was for men and women, with a further sign inside directly men to use one particular corridor.
I messaged the building management soon after and asked if this was a permanent or temporary arrangement. They replied it was temporary as there was a problem with the men's. I replied and thanked them and commented that I would prefer the facilities to remain single sex in future as the current arrangement was confusing as well as unwelcome.
Later that day, going back to my car, I passed the toilet area again. It was chaos. They're deployed several staff to direct people, and both men and women were coming out muttering and looking annoyed.
It was a good illustration of how little either sex liked sharing.

evespudding · 26/01/2020 14:16

I wonder if they have advised the parents of children attending the Youth Theatre of these changes. My DD aged 10 participated in both the Shakespeare Festival with her school and did a term as part of the Youth Theatre last year, some of which was held within the theatre (some in the De Grey rooms). I wouldn't have wanted her to use the unisex toilets at any time, let alone unaccompanied. I know her primary are doing the Shakespeare Festival again this year, so will ask what provision they are making for the girls during time spent at the theatre.

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