Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

I also agree with previous comments about the equality message. There are loads of people about who honestly believe men and women are evenly matched, and have similar strength and speed.
If we are taking girls off to one side in school and teaching them about safety, we need to tell them this. Girls need to know that past a certain age, they don't stand a chance in a physical fight with a male.

It's not an "empowering" message but I'd rather girls didn't have to find out the hard way. What they do with that information is up to them, but I think it's the bare minimum we should be telling girls.

This thread is about why men either don't get women's safety concerns or don't care about those same concerns.
Whether individual women have extensive, limited or no experience of male aggression is irrelevant. The question wasn't why do some people find it hard to understand, it was why do men find it hard to understand.

Which is it with men? They know how uneasy women are and don't care? Or they are oblivious to it? Or is it that less predatory men are oblivious and more dangerous men are aware of it?

The really depressing question is this: if men (the majority, namalt etc etc) really understood what life is like for women, would they take steps to help or would they take advantage? Is getting men to understand going to actually help or is it better to demand safety measures and refuse to debate whether those measures are worthwhile?

I'm leaning towards the latter. I don't want to have to keep describing why having a man in a locked ward is a bad idea. It seems obvious, but there are bad-faith debaters who will come up with unfeasible scenarios in which the inclusion of men is suddenly a question of life or death.
We're over half the population and should just be able to say "we want these measures put in place because we want them, we're not going to debate, we pay taxes and we vote and we want better street lighting, more CCTV in buses and to keep guards on trains" (for example)

I am often disappointed that men I thought understood really don’t

Recently chatting at work I mentioned being referred to as sexy when I was young. The men (same age as me) said well the guy must have been a paedophile when I told them no i didn’t think so and women would also use the term they thought my family/friends were weird. They didn’t seem to understand that girls are sexulised like this and if they are it wasn’t down to society but only by adults who are sexually attracted to children ffs they grew up in the 70’s too. They have also pondered why when women don’t just shout out and tell men to fuck off when harassed in public - mmm the fear factor what is so hard to understand I am physically weaker, feel humiliated and intimidated

All my female family and friends and work colleagues have been either harassed, assaulted and many have been more seriously assaulted and raped - that’s horrific seeing it in black and white

But you not had any experience s. That’s cool

Buts it’s cool that you can empthasise because that’s what’s needed

It’s that simple

Thank you for being sceptical, and accusing me of either lying, not being a woman or being in denial. I am not lying, I am not in denial, and I am not not acknowledging "minor" incidents. I haven't been assaulted and I also haven't been groped, grabbed, had my hair pulled, my bra strap pinged, or my skirt lifted. I have been wolf whistled on I think one occasion.

As I said in a previous post, in my 20s I sometimes thought that the fact I hadn't been groped etc was proof that I was indeed ugly and awful. I wasn't getting any wanted male attention (e.g flirting, dates, a boyfriend), but I also wasn't getting any of the unwanted male attention that I was aware that other women were getting. I felt pretty shit about myself back then.

When #metoo started I felt a bit abnormal as I didn't have experiences of that type that most other women were talking about/revealing. Some of the comments on this thread are making me feel as if I must be a really abnormal freak of a woman. I absolutely believe the experiences of every woman on this thread who has been sexually harassed and assaulted. Please believe my experiences in return.

My lived experience plus the many discussions I’ve had online on the matter are what make me very sceptical of people online who claim to be women but also claim to not have been regularly sexually harassed and experienced at least “minor” assaults

Yes at best being generous I believe they may be women who are in denial or not acknowledging “minor” incidents - I’ve come across that before in real life, discussions with friends where one has said they’ve never been assaulted but when the discussion develops it turns out they meant no serious assaults, but they had been groped, grabbed, hair pulled, bra strap pinged, skirt lifted etc but in their minds initially these incidents “didn’t count” even if they had felt quite threatening at the time.

We’re trained all too well to accept this shite as “oh well thats just how it is”

I remember having to speak to the school re my dd regularly having her bra pinged by a boy who didn’t like her and was bullying her in other ways too. The MALE head of year was being disgustingly dismissive and minimising the whole thing! Not until I said I’d be taking it higher - much higher & public if necessary and mentioned as a hypothetical how would he like it if I came in and gave him a wedgie did he even START to acknowledge it was unacceptable behaviour.

Boy concerned went on to sexually assault his ex just a few months ago.

The boys who have such behaviour go unchecked are imo clearly likely to get worse!

What exactly am I supposed to be conforming to?

The answer is going to be no, obviously, but always interesting to find out new ways I'm womaning wrong.

What are “gender critical non conforming feminists”

"Women who make me very angry" seems to be the answer. The tone is rather hard to miss.

What are “gender critical non conforming feminists”?

I would have thought feminists, who aren’t gender critical are the non conforming ones. Or does it mean non conforming to TRA’s view of what a feminist is?

or when people make the effort to explain in some detail

gender critical non conforming feminists" think a woman ouught to think result in the silly "must be a man" trope

To be honest, without wanting to offend anyone who is on 'the spectrum', but I did consider that as a possibility for you, rather than " it must be a man or a trans woman" The lack of fellow feeling; the lack of social grace; the suggestion that you'd never before experienced any of the things, or in the same way, that the vast majority of women have, and so on.......

You also make some big sweeping generalisations, which you keep repeating, even when told that is not the case; or have people make the effort to explain in some detail to you.......

AriadneAufNaxos

It's not the way you think. It's your experience.

It's unusual for a woman. It's not a leap then to think that you may not be one.

I'm sure you are. A woman with an unusual experience.

Tbh I don't think you're a man(any of you) just narrow minded,lacking in imagination and emotional intelligence.

Just reading through this thread shows very well why women (who have suffered at the hands of men, or have friends and family who did) might be weary of men,afraid or find themselves in a situation where they suddenly think "oh shit ,is this safe?".

It's not exactly rocket science is it?

It's not exactly

Not about how women are supposed to think, it's about the massive lack of empathy and refusal to engage. Apparently it's all about you this thread.

AriadneAufNaxos

I've argued that exact point countless times on this board. I've been "accused" of being a man because of how I post, which is ludicrous. How does a man post? Clearly there must be ways that men speak and women speak which is quite amazing really.

It’s not about trying to expose posters as “thinking like men”.

It seems to arise when certain posters have experiences that seem so wildly different to what most women here have experienced, and talked about with their friends, who react in ways that seem quite at odds to most women, and most crucially of all, when those posters display an utter indifference to and contempt of those other women’s experiences that makes some posters sometime throw up their hands and go “honestly I dunno, are you a man?”. And then much is made of that, as if anyone here really gives more than a passing thought to such things.

Nobody is pretending to look through the screen and diagnose a man-brain in as much as you can not identify with the substance of the lives of many women here, they feel the same about you I guess?

I personally don’t think you’re a man, I suspect you were a lass and are now a woman, for what that’s worth

Like Ariadne in her labyrinth...you have lost me. I haven't a clue exactly what you are trying to say. Something about 'trans threads' and how amusing it all is for you....?

Oh dear I'll try to explain. There are countless threads on here asserting that posters do all sorts of things which society deems are masculine (for example the ever popular climbing trees, hating dresses, etc etc ad nauseam) but that doesn't mean they aren't girls.

What is amusing is that despite being so "gender critical non conforming" posts which don't accord with how these "gender critical non conforming feminists" think a woman ouught to think result in the silly "must be a man" trope.

Can't you (general you) see how ridiculous that is? All that talk of refuting "lady brain" yet claiming a woman who doesn't think the way a woman is supposed to must be a man?

It's as ridiculously gender hidebound as any TRA. That is what is amusing.

*The impact of version 1 is to kindly, thoughtfully disagree. The impact of version 2 is to make women who have had terrible experiences feel like shit. The first encourages, the second belittles."

I very much hope I am coming across as version 1, although I don't think that completely reflects what I have said as I am not at all disagreeing with the concept of women fearing male behaviour in daily life. I understand and appreciate that such fear is a reality for many women, and that many women have experienced harrassement, assault and worse. If I have come across as thinking anything other than that, then I am very sorry, it wasn't my intention.

I appreciate that I am unusual and lucky, and am grateful for that. A PP mentioned asking why those of us who haven't had those experiences haven't had them. Personally I have absolutely no idea. As I said, in the past I did sometimes think it must be related to why I hadn't had a boyfriend, that there was something awful and ugly and unapproachable about me. Now, I have no idea. I am not aware that I do anything differently to other women I know, and I largely don't avoid certain places or situations (other than long late night walks in the dark as per previous post)

It's awful for those women who are genuinely living in fear 24/7. Experience will do that.

But for other women it appears to me as if it's like a minor blip on a radar.

The radar sweeps round at a fairly subconscious level. And blips might come and go. But they only start to really go off, when a line is crossed.

If everyone gets off the train carriage and leaves just you and a man. Or if a man swaps bus seats to sit near to you. Or sits close to you, when the bus is empty.

Or starts talking to you, uninvited, in an otherwise empty lift.

A man being violent towards others is very frightening. And hitting walls, banging tables, losing tempers.

Most people know that disciplining children can often involve cancelling a treat as punishment.

And often you only have to do it once. Because thereafter, the threat of 'you won't go to the party if...' will work. Purely because they know you will follow through.

So it's unsurprising that men have the ability to intimidate women with little more than narrowed eyes.

It doesn't have to be them personally who has been violent, when you know that as a group, it's common.

I'm actually happy that there are women out there that haven't experienced any of this and neither did their friend or family.

However just because they were lucky, and that's all it is luck, doesn't mean they get to sneer at the experiences of other women. Dismiss them. Find it amusing or unbelievable. Think they're oh so superior or forward thinking or having a more fulfilled life because they "don't live in fear".

I’m constantly on my guard. I’m disabled and vulnerable. I am disgusted by the denial of some posters of our experiences. I am so lucky not to have been raped or beaten. I’ve been in some very sticky situations and have talked and / or fought my way out.

At the secondary school I went to, the sexually desirable girls were grabbed and groped and from my experience seemed to like it. Idk if that was true as we never talked about it. I wasn’t groped because I was skinny with very small breasts. I felt less than. That being groped as you left the classroom being the standard to judge sexual desirability amongst 14/15/16 year olds makes me feel sick. But this is the back drop that some males grow up in.

Your son, your friend and other men like them are why we need feminism

I'm not afraid 24/7 - but the threat of sexual violence effects my life, my actions and my mental wellbeing. I would be jubiouse of any woman who says it never has/does. And at times yes I am very afraid.

If a tradesman comes into my house I do consider - what if he makes an advance on me.
I would never walk my dog after dark.
I lock the door when driving at night. I double lock the house doors when home alone at night.
The curtains must be shut at night (dh hates that)
I'm afraid in a taxi on my own.
I won't go out to the bin at night if I'm home alone.
If I hear a noise at night I'm not worried about being robbed I'm worried about being raped. And I have considered I may be in danger if the wrong people (could be anyone could be a neighbour i don't know) discovered my husband works away and I'm alone in the house all week.

But no I don't live in fear - for me that is just the reality of being a woman. You are aware of your vulnerability and you are cautious of dangers. Men won't ever understand that. Yes some may be afraid of getting mugged or beaten up - but the constant looming danger of sexual violence is not somthing most men can understand.

The feeling you conjure up is like the ones I felt when I was 12 and was first harassed in the street by adult men- that I had caused it, and must learn to put up, shut up, not encourage it and learn to cope

Yes, i'm getting that 'creeped out' feeling too; like you are caught up in some one's power trip or twisted fantasy.