Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

Sexual assaults/rapes are a huge problem and I just don't know how it'll ever be solved as evidence is key and people don't usually have CCTV in their bedrooms.

That said, there's also a bit of a backlash against the college rape culture situation in the US where the authorities had to step in as universities were apparently effectively holding kangaroo courts and dismissing students/ruining their professional lives without provable due process. Sadly, a side effect of this may be that people become sceptical which isn't great for genuine victims.

The whole Betsy DeVos conundrum seems to be feeding into all this.

I think that many women are concerned that patriarchy hurts many men with its narrow sterotypes

So you might find many women supporting say male mental health initiatives, support boys who want to dress differently or play with dolls . We may /often talk about how best to bring up boys to be good men. We may disagree on how much this is a feminist activity.

But on the whole, women are not in a position of power. And feminism is focussed on helping women, b cause at the end of the day women seem to suffer a lot more at the hands of patriarchy than men do. At least you get respect when you speak, a better salary, a health service that is more attuned to Male bodies

There is no reason why there isn't a "masculism" movement which is driven primarily by men, because after all they know what affects them better than any woman can. Such a movement could work with the feminist movement where there is overlap, but don't expect women to do it for you, we are too busy doing the ironing.

I think there are key significant differences between attacks on men and sexual assaults on women

Firstly by separating women we can make it safer for half the population at little cost except to some male egos ( males who would like to commit harm )

And secondly, it is almost impossible to get a conviction for sexual violence. In the case of a violent assault the bruises are taken as proof that an assault occurred, in rape cases it tends to be "he says ...she says" . Even if the woman is covered in bruises as has been reported today wrt the Cypress case. Where there are no bruises because the w9man hasn't tried t9 fight off the man, it's taken as evidence of consent ( see today's online guardian report on the secret family courts )

Then people tend to assume the woman must have been lying or there would be a conviction, and after all he's such a nice bloke and she was drinking/flirting/existing

I agree that some blokes do get started on when minding their own business. But most fights going on between males are due to aggressive escalation.

But we're talking about assaults, not fights.

I think a lot of women don't understand the reality that men face. It's easy to talk about 'toxic masculinity', but recognising it as a concept doesn't release men from it's grasp. For example, our society still views male dominance as a desirable trait - some will disagree but it's literally as entrenched as misogyny.

Look on dating sites. Most women want a guy taller than them, and many want somebody to 'sweep me off my feet', or the old classic 'a knight in shining armour (not a prat in tinfoil)'. One of women's most common sexual fantasies in studies is 'being dominated'.

And then there's the media. Stoic, physically powerful, mentally strong, masculine men. Tom Hardy, Jason Statham, Vin Diesel, The Rock, James Bond, etc etc. And before them, the Arnold Schwarzenegger's and Sylvester Stallone's. A weedy accountant never saved the day, and if he did it was probably a satire.

Men often get beaten up whilst trying to 'save face' - a difficult predicament as they'll also become a target if they don't try and stand up for themselves. A typical example might be the teen who talks back to the bully to save face in front of his peers, but then gets beaten up outside the school gates (sometimes even stabbed) as the bully also can't lose face. The victim just wanted to be left alone but couldn't 'back down' or it would just continue with him now being an 'easy target'.

Similar situation when a man walks down the street with his girlfriend and somebody shouts 'don't fancy yours, mate' or 'show us your tits, love'. It's often a group of lads looking for a reaction, and they'll often get it as the man doesn't want to look weak in front of his girlfriend. All he has to do is say 'piss off' or look at them the wrong way and his head is getting used as a football.

My friend is a doorman and tells me that a lot of trouble starts with the girlfriend saying 'what are you going to do about it....you're not going to let him say that, are you?'

I'm as firm a believer in women's rights as any, but it seems that many women are woefully blind to the environment that men live in, which is a constant power play of dominance.

I am, I think, as women go, at the more confident end of the spectrum wrt to stranger danger. (not necessarily rightly - I just go with my feelings and I've had a lot of luck in the outside world I guess - my nastiest lucky escapes have been with men I know.) This means that I often leave parties etc at night alone and sometimes get a lot of concern.

What is interesting about this is that while there are some decent men who are good friends who are honestly being nice and putting themselves out by offering to walk you somewhere (and then walk back to the party), there are also the constant opportunists, newly met, who see this as a good way to get closer to you. I don't mean rape or assault you; I just mean that the vulnerability they ascribe to you allows them to lean in socially; even if they don't actually offer to walk you somewhere (why would I trust them?) they can make a demonstrative fuss about thinking you precious and special, offer to get you a cab, maybe get your number ("call me when you get home, please!") etc. None of this costs them a thing (unlike the real friend who is prepared to walk out in the cold with you, and back alone) but they benefit, they believe, as if they have actually done something gentlemanly, by appearing to give a shit. Note this. note this benefit to anyone who can, at absolutely no cost to themselves, appear to decry danger to women and therefore, the benefit of danger to women. It's minor. But it's there.

@deydododatdodontdeydo

I agree that some blokes do get started on when minding their own business. But most fights going on between males are due to aggressive escalation. Especially when drink is involved . And I think the point we are trying to make is that the reason men are 4xs more likey to be assulted is because they are more violent. If we only counted the men that were attacked through no provocation then it would very unlikely be 4xs higher.

There no reverse of the message 'boys shouldn't hit girls', which is why it's so common in films for women to belt men around the face, but the reverse is deemed totally unacceptable.

"The CSEW estimated that 20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, equivalent to an estimated 3.4 million female victims and 631,000 male victims."

But this doesn't prove that 'Men are usually injured or killed in mutually violent altercations or through risky/criminal actions' like you stated.

The CSEW reports 1.4 million 'assaults against the person' in 2018 alone, with the majority being male, and 69% of homicide victims being male. Men were 4x more likely to be assaulted by a stranger so have more to fear when walking alone.

deydododatdodontdeydo that kind of thing does happen a lot.
A lot of the stabbings are gang related though. These boys aren't stabbing old men, they're stabbing each other (in general).
Drug dealers steal from each other and attack each other. Dog fighters likewise. Being involved in crime increases the risk of being hurt or killed, so criminals being injured regularly must impact on the statistics in some way. That doesn't mean a man who is randomly attacked somehow brought it on himself.
Criminals getting hurt must influence the numbers, men being the vast majority of people on the streets at night likewise, men being more aggressive likewise, to be honest women should be a tiny proportion of violence victims because we are less inclined to put ourselves in dangerous situations, more inclined to acquiesce and pacify, and less inclined to be involved in most crimes.

Men are usually injured or killed in mutually violent altercations or through risky/criminal actions.

Depends how you define mutually violent.
I know a lot of men who have been attacked in pubs (my cousin had his jaw broken), for such mutually violent acts as looking at someone, nudging into someone, having long hair, supposedly looking at someone's girlfriend, walking along a street*, etc.
The police would record them as alcohol related incidents, implying both parties are to blame, but they were all very one sided.

*My ex was walking along with his friend when two approaching men punched them to the ground, without any word of warning.

Women are at risk of sexual violence when just going about their normal life.

Any data for that?

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/sexualoffencesinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2017:
"The CSEW estimated that 20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, equivalent to an estimated 3.4 million female victims and 631,000 male victims."

Aren't men four times as likely to be attacked or whatever it is easily accounted for because they are more likely to be out and about on the streets after dark?

Men own the night.

Men are usually injured or killed in mutually violent altercations or through risky/criminal actions.

Women are at risk of sexual violence when just going about their normal life.

Any data for that?

Men's reality regarding safety' is being 4x more likely to be attacked by a stranger and much more likely to be killed/seriously injured.

Men are usually injured or killed in mutually violent altercations or through risky/criminal actions.

Women are at risk of sexual violence when just going about their normal life.

It's not an easy topic.

'Men's reality regarding safety' is being 4x more likely to be attacked by a stranger and much more likely to be killed/seriously injured. Men need to be much more careful than many are, but our culture discourages them from wanting to look weak - the 'ideal man' trope is often the strong, fearless hero seen in 99% of action films.

I'd rather men sort themselves out rather than worry about 'how women feel', as this would have the biggest impact on reducing violence against both sexes.

This is in part why I get so very angry with people wittering for highly selfish political reasons about females aren't really oppressed and their femaleness/oppression has nothing to do with their biology.

I agree.

I wish these "people" would just fuck off. They know exactly who they are.

realizing for the first time that the guy she had sex with

Or indeed the unknown male approaching

could overpower her easily and do anything he wanted and she couldn't stop him.

Or is in fact blocking her exit, overpowering her, doing exactly what he wants with her body and she can't stop him.

She felt afraid for the first time.

That fear is acquired by direct experience. I was 'taught' to be afraid by the group of males who cornered me at the age of eight, teaching me in one sharp lesson to be afraid of being alone in an unseen place, and to be afraid when an unknown male approaches. At twelve, another one taught me, it might be fantastic fun to sit at the top of the bus, something you really enjoy, but you can't do it if you're female because if there's no one else up there some bastard male will decide it's a nice opportunity to access the biology you're walking around with it. Your identity, thoughts, opinions, in fact any part of you other than your body, will be of no relevance to him as he does this.

Incidentally both events also taught me that after you've been assaulted there's an issue with being believed, an issue with you being blamed for putting yourself in harm's way and upsetting people by getting assaulted, being hideously ashamed as your assault is discussed with a police officer, and with ho ho ho boys will be boys type responses.

This is in part why I get so very angry with people wittering for highly selfish political reasons about females aren't really oppressed and their femaleness/oppression has nothing to do with their biology.

A woman was recently attacked near by on New Year’s Day.

The attacker still haven’t been caught.

Today, our (Male) manager had a meeting and was telling us this we have been doing a lot of the time anyway.

Being aware of our surroundings
Try to make sure you arrive in groups (I start at 4am)
Be careful when you leave work if it’s still dark
Try and arrange lifts if you need to

The night shift( usually Male)at work have also been told to quickly answer the door in the morning now instead of waiting. Before, we could be waiting 2-3 mins. Now they are expected to answer immediately

We were also given a rape alarm.

It just shocked me at how naive men seem to think we are. We grow up knowing these things as women.

Oh, the MRAs. All my friends have had several of these happen (molestation, sexual assault, attempted but thwarted assault, gropings, catcalling and other street harassment) and none of us reported it. I'm not basing my fear and behavior on STATISTICS, I'm basing it on my life experience.

I grew up in the 70s, nobody taught me to be afraid of men, that was what I learned through experience to protect myself. The worst of it all happened when I was under 16. But I wanted to mention I think the younger generation is more clueless about situational awareness and protection because they don't spend as much time outside and a lot of them aren't having sex until their 20s (this isn't a bad thing, but it means they don't have the experience we had at their age). I talked to a 25 year old woman who just started having sex and she was having an existential crisis realizing for the first time that the guy she had sex with could overpower her easily and do anything he wanted and she couldn't stop him. She felt afraid for the first time. She made it to 25 without realizing this. I unfortunately learned it at age 5.

Men want to be dominent. Its in their nature. So it does work to their advantage that women are submissive and afraid.

I also think that alot of women will look for a partner who can protect them because of that inherent fear - whether consciously or not. Again incentavising men to keep us scared.

I think generally speaking most men subconsciously want women to remain afraid and submissive. A small number actively and knowingly keep women scared and the rest just don't think about it or care.

So if a man says that a bum pinch or a hand on the knee or an unwanted kiss aren't that bad, I just repaint the scenario as his cellmate doing that to him. Generally when you talk about harassment men think they wouldn't mind it if a woman did it to them nudge-nudge etc (and I've known a man who had this happen and it was horrible for him) but seem to understand the woman's point of view when faced with unwanted attention from other men.

A woke colleague only really started to get this after he'd booked a massage and the masseuse was male. He was explaining that he was far more comfortable receiving intimate touch and care from women, he wasn't sure why he'd been so uncomfortable about being touched in that way by a man. I pointed out that it was his first experience of feeling sexually vulnerable.

AriadneAufNaxos right so you've never experienced any male aggression and your husband is a considerate man. That's brilliant news, but I was asking whether the majority of men would use an understanding of women's fears for us or against us.
What is your opinion on that and why?

if men (the majority, namalt etc etc) really understood what life is like for women, would they take steps to help or would they take advantage?

My husband fusses about my walking home late at night from work or getting a taxi late if I'm out socially without him. I'm regularly told that no matter what time it is I should phone him and he'll collect me. I never do.

I know he does the crossing over to the other side of the street thing if walking behind a woman at night. If sharing a late night taxi with female friends he will instruct a route so that we are dropped off last. These are not at my instigation.

but as soon as it involves one of his family members he has a massive blind spot

I think this is one area where we need to be shouting the statistics out. I think of all rape reports it's 1 or 2% that are deemed "false allegations" (the wording implies lying but that is rarely the case, so in effect the number for women who lie about having been raped is lower still, and this is from reports to police so lower even still).
That means if a man's friend is accused of rape, he needs to know it is 98% likely that his friend did it. Not 50/50, not probably possibly maybe. 98% likely. He also needs to know it's unlikely this will be proved in court. Men need to know that there are rapists among their social circles and the lack of a conviction means very little. Rape is almost decriminalised, this doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

The only other thing I'd make sure men understood is that a rape doesn't have to be a violent stranger jumping out of a bush with a knife to be traumatic. Again, they don't get this - it's just bad sex right? Except if you repaint the scenario to include only men.

Men are obsessed with prison rape, if a rapist or paedophile is put away they start fantasising about what will happen to him, as if there is an Official Prison Rape Team sent to attack all sex offenders. The reason men are obsessed with prison rape is because being in prison with large, strong criminal men is as close to being sexually vulnerable as a man will ever get.

So if a man says that a bum pinch or a hand on the knee or an unwanted kiss aren't that bad, I just repaint the scenario as his cellmate doing that to him. Generally when you talk about harassment men think they wouldn't mind it if a woman did it to them nudge-nudge etc (and I've known a man who had this happen and it was horrible for him) but seem to understand the woman's point of view when faced with unwanted attention from other men.

Obviously I don't want to go around making men homophobic, but generally men just don't take women seriously as a threat so straight men just can't empathise otherwise.

For the vast majority of men, I don't think they can "really grasp" it.

I kind-of got it even back as a teenager. But I never really saw that there's a constant threat of attack, and the influence that has on everyday behaviour.

Something that's helped my own understanding is a talk Helen Steel gave. I think it's the one linked here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3102159-Helen-Steels-speech-from-Cambridge-Womens-Place-meeting

So I think women speaking about their experiences has an effect. It's so hard to do that though.