Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

But that's my point, Midgebabe.

People often focus on the small proportion of men who are CEOs and ignore all the homeless men and suicides.

But then you must include all members of that class not just a selected few

It's an analogy of how people say 'men have all the power', when in reality it's a tiny proportion of men at the top.

Depends how you define power

I think the male voices on this thread have answered the ops question of :

Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

They don't care, don't take it seriously and feel their self made problems are more important, and women should concentrate on them.

It's an analogy of how people say 'men have all the power', when in reality it's a tiny proportion of men at the top.

What determines those people form distinct classes?

Their biological sex.

Oh I just reread the thread title. It's can men understand women's issue, not the other way around.

That doesn't sound lik class analysis. The class bit missing. What determines those people form distinct classes?

By using class analysis, you could conclude that a group of nine homeless men and a billionaire is a more privileged group than ten female execs each earning £100k, because the first group has more overall wealth.

Poor,poor men . Apparently all the violence stats, all the danger, all the toxic masculinity etc is not quite enough and they have less incentive than women to fight against patriarchy, despite the effects on them . That speaks volumes.

By lumping men together, it's easy to obfuscate the fact that the rich white men with the power aren't the ones who are most hurt by the patriarchy - homeless, suicidal men etc.

So male suicide rates,conviction rates ,assault statistics etc aren't enough awareness?

More needs to be done to raise awareness? By whom? How?

Considering that quite a few men use those stats to either shut up or blame women or feminism for it.

Why should the average non-violent man give a shit about people who don't care about his sex being the principle victims of said issue (violence)?

It's not like the average bloke is the one responsible, despite people trying to group all men into some collectively responsible group.

But any attempt to discuss how men fit into it is derailed by cries of WATM.

Men will only change through awareness and 'poor menz' diatribes is unlikely to start a productive dialogue.

Surely you should know by now that every thread on women must be derailed by “but what about the men” cries?

Wonderful derailing though, with the world's tiniest violin playing in the background.

Poor,poor men . Apparently all the violence stats, all the danger, all the toxic masculinity etc is not quite enough and they have less incentive than women to fight against patriarchy, despite the effects on them . That speaks volumes.

That's interesting. Last time I looked, fewer than one-third of perpetrators found culpable by college investigations were expelled.

Well, that may arguably be related to the above. If they claim to have 'no obligation to make sure that the hearing panel gets it right' and admit that it's 'not just about the facts', then they're likely going to end up in hot water if the expelled student sues.

Yeah I don't think US college campus rape culture means what you think it means.

But I feel sometimes it becomes too 'abstract' and effectively just amounts to aimless complaining (not aiming that at you specifically).

Dismantling toxic masculinity requires an understanding of it, and whilst it's not unreasonable to say that men should be the ones to lead this, there's also the problem that they have less incentive than us to change the patriarchy.

college rape culture situation in the US where the authorities had to step in as universities were apparently effectively holding kangaroo courts and dismissing students/ruining their professional lives without provable due process.

That's interesting. Last time I looked, fewer than one-third of perpetrators found culpable by college investigations were expelled.

Men or patriarchy? I distinguish between the two. Not all men support the patriarchy but all men benefit from it. So for me feminism is about tackling patriarchy in the long term and abstract sense, and supporting women directly in the here and now sense. Because having a focus is essential if you want change to happen

If you want a group to tackle patriarchy and male issues, it's not feminism

It's like...climate change is more likely to harm women than men but we don't focus on climate change. We focus on the women.

Can you expand on this?

Borrowed from a previous thread.

Currently, OCR guidelines direct colleges to apply a preponderance-of-evidence—that is, 50.01 percent—standard of proof in assigning guilt, and the “guidance” warns that if schools don’t go after these cases aggressively enough, they risk losing federal funds. Though it later quietly backtracked, OCR in 2013 even endorsed as a “blueprint” a remarkably broad definition of actionable sexual harassment—including even speech that “would not be offensive to an ‘objectively reasonable person of the same gender in the same situation.’” In 2014, the agency told colleges to “ensure that steps to accord any due process rights do not restrict or unnecessarily delay the protections provided by Title IX to the complainant.” Johnson and Taylor document the result—dozens of chilling examples of colleges and universities abandoning due process in favor of publicly punishing alleged malefactors.

At Middlebury, investigators were taught to “‘start by believing’ the accuser,” who should always be called a “victim” or “survivor,” and told that “a sexual assault investigation is ‘not the time for ‘just the facts.’’” At Ohio State, officials refused to agree under oath that they had an obligation to adjudicate sexual-assault cases correctly; one administrator claimed that her responsibility to “support students at Ohio State” did not include “an obligation to make sure that the hearing panel gets it right.” With OCR’s “quasi-dictatorial” support, college administrators have been all too eager to convict and punish students, while denying them the basic legal protections afforded by the criminal-justice system—rights as fundamental as that of cross-examining one’s accusers.

www.city-journal.org/html/campus-kangaroo-courts-15033.html

There are good reasons why women don't want feminism to centre men. It's because a lot of the day to day issues are different and despite us being bolshy feminsits, we know our priorities would get overlooked and overruled.

I'm not suggesting feminism centres men, but men are arguably the biggest root of women's problems, so we can't just discuss women in a vacuum.

authorities had to step in as universities were apparently effectively holding kangaroo courts and dismissing students/ruining their professional lives without provable due process.

Can you expand on this?

Why don't you ask mnhq to set up a masculism board and aim to get together a group of likeminded individuals.

Then you come up with ideas start to take the steps to solve those problems? Like feminism but for men? Otherwise it does sound a bit whiny "but what about the men"

There are good reasons why women don't want feminism to centre men. It's because a lot of the day to day issues are different and despite us being bolshy feminsits, we know our priorities would get overlooked and overruled .

I am also interested in climate change, but ( except where it collided with feminism) I keep it to the relevant boards,

So you might find many women supporting say male mental health initiatives, support boys who want to dress differently or play with dolls . We may/often talk about how best to bring up boys to be good men.

I wholeheartedly support this, but the issue I feel is that boys are effectively still on their own when they face the bulky at the school gates. Those that manage to 'solve' the problem with physical violence ('give him a black eye and he'll never pick on you again') might sadly continue in life with the understanding that 'fighting fire with fire' is the best method, thus perpetuating toxic masculinity.