Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

Neither do I. I am not in fear 24/7.

But what? When people tell you they feel this way you don't believe them?

I. Believe. Women.

No, this is not in the back of my mind

I think it is at an instinctive level...even if you don't recognise it consciously. We have many instinctive flight/flight instincts operating just below the level of consciousness.

Equality of opportunity and so on is one thing.....and a good thing, obviously...but I do think we need to fully recognise vulnerabilities too. The fight for equal rights has tended to mean that these specific vulnerabilities have been denied or repressed in many instances.

Even though we now see women boxing professionally, for example, or competing & performing in traditionally male arenas doesn't disguise the fact that Nicola Adams ( boxing champion) fought in women only competitions......for good reason......and which is why it is important to recognise that sex is real and one cannot really change sex no matter how one feels.

Ariadne, you don't have to! I love that you don't live your life like that. I hope most women don't. Personally I'm an anxious person. I check the cat is breathing, and roll my eyes at myself as I do so. Im a nervous Nellie, with no significant reason to be.

DH is a huge 6ft 4in barrel-chested man. He's not going to understand what is is to feel threatened by walking down a quiet street after dusk.

But now we have daughters, who are about to get to an independent age where they will be hanging out with friends and coming home on their own. I think now he's looking at their safety he gets a glimmer of what we have to think about and worry about - but it's not the same as having the fear yourself. We've talked about picking sensible ways home (not the scenic route down by the river when it'll just be you on your own) AND we've talked about why it's not bloody fair, and the world shouldn't be that way but still don't walk home at dusk by yourself by the river.

And I don't live in constant fear, but in my 20s I was walking home off the night busses in London at 3am late opening restaurant and there was a certain amount of caution and changing of routes etc. I am an over-thinker though; I always pick my exit in a cinema not the main route in, as most people will go out the way they came in, have a primary and secondary meet up point at theme parks/days out in London etc; a special code word that DDs know that means shut up and move, but would also be a password for them if I send someone to collect them - or for them to use to alert me to the fact they're in difficulty but can't tell me directly.

I DO assess every situation, instinctively and pretty much constantly. I'm vigilant and alert in a way my husband isn't. I'm not afraid, but I am exhausted by the end of the day from being primed the whole time. I wonder how men and women's daily cortisol levels compare?

No. Other than since I started reading FWR thinking am I supposed to be living my life like this? I still don't.

helpfulperson my experience is similar to yours which is why I say I also don't get it.
I've hiked across the country alone and slept in a bivvy bag in fields.

I remember a post on here where a woman posted about an incident where she was walking along at night and saw a man in the distance. He wasn't walking her way, didn't look at her or see her, yet she was terrified.
This bears no resemblance to any of my experiences, and I just didn't get it on a personal level, although I of course sympathised with her and the experiences she must have had to lead her to feel like that.

However, I DO assess every situation, instinctively and pretty much constantly. I'm vigilant and alert in a way my husband isn't

This is exactly what I mean- but you put it better!

I'm not living in fear, and I'm very grateful that I've been lucky, and understand and have, I hope, compassion for those who've faced worse than I. However, I DO assess every situation, instinctively and pretty much constantly. I'm vigilant and alert in a way my husband isn't. I'm not afraid, but I am exhausted by the end of the day from being primed the whole time. I wonder how men and women's daily cortisol levels compare?

“Of course there is a risk but it is far smaller than the risk of being in a car accident and yet we all still get in cars.” Care to provide stats on that?

I’ve been in 2 car accidents my whole life but I’ve been harassed and sexually assaulted too many times for me to count inc very many times in situations/places where I should have been safe eg school, on public transport in the daytime...

Dd is almost 19 and has never been in a car accident but has been harassed and assaulted on numerous occasions too.

Also take into account people, WOMEN are far less likely to report officially a sexual assault than they are a car accident!

I'm willing to bet the huge vast majority of "minor" sexual assaults - groping, ass grabbing, cornering etc go unreported because we KNOW the police would do sod all about it! Partly lack of resources yes but also partly because that is a very patriarchal organisation that STILL mostly fails to recognise the issues for girls and women - evidenced by the many supposed "women's safety" campaigns that are merely perpetuating rape myths!

Exactly- but it seems other people are struggling to grasp this

Yes I am. This constant living in fear bears no resemblance to my life.

*fear mongering - damn autocorrect

I think while the mindset that all men do know and want us that way because it suits them exists we aren't going to ever make any head way.

If we want reasonable, compassion we have to try and temper our wrath and disdain - I'm not saying be quiet and know our place before anyone starts .. however if you treat all men as though they're knowing and gleeful perpetrators of violence or fear monger OMG amongst women you're only going To alienate those that would make effort to understand.

I think we could all start with the men in our lives and have a calm, reflective conversation about the differences between their nights out vs yours .. take those you can, out into town towards the end of a night and soberly watch the exchanges between vulnerable women and men on the prowl for an easy 'night'. Show them one of the many videos made my feminist groups that reverse the male female role ( there's a few on YouTube ) they're quite difficult to watch but very thought provoking..

Personally I think the largest obstacle is that they simply aren't able to empathise and that won't change and isn't about them being arseholes but because the current state of affairs mean they've never had to carry their keys in their hands to feel the walk home is somewhat more safe, or set up an emergency rescue plan for first dates etc .. it's very easy and largely justified to be angry with them for that inequality but it isn't going to solve anything being angry.

Patient, measured and persistent education will be so much more beneficial and will weed out those that are gleefully revelling in the misery of women's fear.

It's pointless being angry with OPs son for not being able to grasp the fear of women around his gender in a generalised way, it serves many points to present the reasons To him in a way he might be able To grasp x

I'm not in fear 24/7 either. But I can understand how, due to their experiences, some women might be

Exactly- but it seems other people are struggling to grasp this

I'm not in fear 24/7 either. But I can understand how, due to their experiences, some women might be.

But I am cautious about some things like parking in a dark car park, walking in an isolated area etc. And my husband is very understanding of a lot of things but he gets frustrated that I always always lock the doors whilst I am in the house. He nips out to the shop and then when he comes back ten minutes later finds I have locked him out. He is baffled by it. He said to me recently 'but no one would see us inside and decide to come in' and the penny only dropped for him when I said 'no, seeing you would probably stop someone coming in. Seeing me and two children would be unlikely to deter a potential intruder in the same way'. It was like a lightbulb suddenly came on above his head.

I'm not actively in fear at work or at home, but yes, it is always at the back of my mind when I am out and about and when it gets dark and I have to get home

No, this is not in the back of my mind.

Neither do I. I am not in fear 24/7

I'm not actively in fear at work or at home, but yes, it is always at the back of my mind when I am out and about and when it gets dark and I have to get home.

I have also had men attempt to rape me before so yes, of course I fear it happening again- wouldn't you?

Of course there is a risk but it is far smaller than the risk of being in a car accident and yet we all still get in cars

I think that physical risk and threat is a constant in our lives; for all of us - male and female......however for women it also has a certain quality - of sexual threat too......At some basic level women always sense physical threat when alone around men.They may not be conscious of it, or acknowledge it, though - but is is there.

That is why women's spaces are important. Any space in which women are undressed or particularly physically vulnerable needs to be single sex for safety, comfort & dignity. Even when I used to go to the gym - I'd go to women only sessions....and I'm a strong, confident, outspoken woman.

Men will never, ever understand the fear that is with us 24/7

Neither do I. I am not in fear 24/7.

No. Men will never, ever understand the fear that is with us 24/7. There was another thread about online dating on MN where a guy was telling women not to be so suspicious of every guy that contacts them and I wanted to ream him out. He has no fcking clue how scary it is meeting a guy for the first time.
Women have to constantly monitor their environment for threats- going on a date you are constantly looking for clues he might not respect the word no, walking home at night you have to weigh up the risks of that, entering a car park late at night to collect your car can be bloody terrifying. Men dont get that because largely, men dont worry about their personal safety unless they are in very specific situations (eg confronted by someone with a knife etc).
Men dont have constant wolf whistles or unsolicited comments made about their bodies, they dont have to struggle to let women down "politely" for fear of them kicking off in a rage and getting violent. They dont have the knowledge that most women could overpower them no matter how fit and strong they keep themselves.

As Gavin De Becker says in his book the gift of fear: "mens worst fear is that women will laugh at them. Women's worst fear is that men will kill them".
Until you are living with that fear at the back of your mind, you will never "get it" no matter how understanding you try to be. Its like me trying to fully "get" what its like to experience causal racism on a daily basis- I can empathise but how can I fully understand what it feels like when I am white?

I dont think its as simple as men v women. I'm a woman and it isn't my reality of safety. I hike alone, camp alone, walk home in the dark, share youth hostel rooms with unknown men etc. At 50 I've had the odd unwanted attention but nothing that wasnt easily rejected. So i dont experience fear doing these things

I've done all of the above too....and have never experienced rape or violent sexual assault ( but did have to jump out of HGVs while hitching in France; get chased through woods in the south of France; get 'taken advantage of' by an older man when naive at 16 and so on.....). I

had a loving, nurturing father and have never been in a relationship with an obviously abusive man.....however, I absolutely do/did recognise my vulnerabilities.....certainly on a physical level......

I reckon under your confident exterior, like me, there is a necessary and instinctive fear/threat response....Maybe you don't acknowledge it?

I think a lot of men don't really get it no, not in my experience. I have had to explain where women would avoid walking, how the sound of quickening footsteps approaching from behind us can make us feel, how it is not unusual for women to place their keys splayed out between their fingers in case we need to defend ourselves, how going on self defence courses feels like essential knowledge in order to keep us safe and how we scan and read body language and facial gesture as men walk towards us

It depends, but I have found that many men don't even understand how concerned we can be at simple things like solo travel overseas, sitting in a bar alone etc - late night trains being my personal hate and I'm not small or young (I try to have my dog with me as he's got an excellent snarl if someone approaches

I don’t think I have ever met anyone who wouldn’t be scared by someone punching holes in walls or smashing chairs. Surely only another violent person would find that sort of behaviour normal?

Well yes indeed.

I'm a 60 year old woman, the quote I keep moving. I am always moving. I take the stairs, not the lift, never stand on the escalators if on my own, but walk up them etc, etc doesn't resonate with me at all.

I’ve read many things on these threads that it had never occurred to me to be bothered, or worried, about. If anything since I discovered MN I occasionally get annoyed when doing things I've always done but now being worried that according to received wisdom I should be wary of.

I would be insulting my strong wife/daughter if I thought they needed protection." I strongly suspect this is very much a deliberate suppression of the instinct to acknowledge a dangerous situation. I think it's mostly said for the effect of seeming righteous, but they might also do it

Agree again! They suppress their instinctive responses in the name of 'equality' and 'respect' for their female friends and girlfriends. A generation of young men & women who have been brought up on 'equality' but don't yet fully recognise yet the 'deep structure'.

I dont think its as simple as men v women. I'm a woman and it isn't my reality of safety. I hike alone, camp alone, walk home in the dark, share youth hostel rooms with unknown men etc. At 50 I've had the odd unwanted attention but nothing that wasnt easily rejected. So i dont experience fear doing these things. I understand rationally that some womens experiences are different and this leads them to behave differently but I am aware that i dont really get why some women are so fearful of so much.

Some mens experiences will lead them to feel this fear, others not. Some children have cause to fear all grown ups, others not.

Of course there is a risk but it is far smaller than the risk of being in a car accident and yet we all still get in cars.